Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Receiver: Arcam vs Marantz vs Integra

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doesn't introduce a sonic character of its own

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John we have been down this road before my friend and for some reason I feel like going down it again. Not picking an argument, just looking for a bit more clarification on your end.

I'm not going to stop saying this, your wrong. All receivers don't sound the same. Exactly how many have you A/B’d at home over say the last year to make this statement? What exactly do you own anyway? I have always been curious as you always make definitive statements to people and other then a white paper that somebody put out, what do you base it on? Is there any first hand experience at play here? You never talk about what you own and I’m dead serious, I’m curious.

I have said in the past that there are a lot of them out there that do provide the same sonic signature but to say EVERY one is exactly the same, in my books is wrong. I have owned a few and there is now way anyone is ever going to get me to buy into the statement that they all sound the same…….and god knows I have owned enough to make that statement.

Never: you raise an interesting point. As you know, for the past year, I have been reviewing all the material that I could on receivers and pre/ pros.

From the specifications, I could NOT discern any sonic difference!!!! If they really have a flat response from 20 Hz to 20 KHz and less than .08% THD, how can they sound different unless their signal processing is different?

So, I either conclude that they are sonically the same or the manufacturers cooked the specs.

I wouldn't argue either way because I no "proof." Could be that many are sonically the same. Could be that some manufacturers lied.

I look forward to your discussion.

NeverHappy,

JohnK's claim of "no difference" depends upon proper blind listening tests. He would readily agree with you that a casual comparison between brand A and brand B -- even a carefully level-matched one -- would likely result in a claimed differences.

Have all your comparisons been done without you knowing which device is playing?

It basically comes down to conclusions based on anecdotal evidence vs. conclusions based on properly tested and supported theories. Since the entire transit of an audio signal through an amplifier/receiver/preamp/what-have-you must obey the laws of physics -- incidentally, these "laws" are actually theories -- any two amplifiers measured to have linear frequency responses, THD below the threshhold of human hearing, etc. should produce the same output given the same input.

Many -- and dare I say most -- perceived differences between amplifiers having linear specs are a result of the brain's not-to-be-discounted capability of influencing perception. In order to do a proper comparison, you need to deprive the brain of as much extraneous information as possible. Simply knowing which device is playing will influence your perception. This is why a double-blind test is vital to getting any sort of definitive answer to whether or not sonic differences exist between any two (or more) amplifiers.

Way too many big words at play here and I'm easily confused!

Let's keep this simple. Some manufactures play around with their respective outputs and for various reasons also fool around with various impedances. Sunfire for example uses a 1 Ohm resistor that is placed in series with the output of each channel to alter the sound. They then also run a standard set of outputs where the resistor is not used.

Everyone and anyone who has ever heard Sunfire equipment acknowledges that there is a difference in the sonic signature coming out of each output. The amp is identical; everything is exactly the same from point to point with one exception.

My point is this, to say that all receivers sound the same is like saying they all use the same internal parts and have the exact same specs at the output stage. I have my doubts. I'm not sure if they still do or not but Marantz was another one that played with the final output stage to achieve a warmer then normal sound. I have no idea if they still are but it's interesting that most reviews you read on a Marantz product bring up the word warm, laid back etc.

Like it or not, the end result can be altered by any manufacture if they want to………..and some do. To say they all sound the same in my books is wrong.

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Like it or not, the end result can be altered by any manufacture if they want to………..and some do

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If that is the case, then those alterations would show up in the frequency response graphs. I'm not disputing the fact that a linear and non-linear amplifier will sound different.

But you completely sidestepped the point that Peter was making. Have you double blind comparo'd the receivers you mentioned? And saying "big words am hard" doesn't get you out of it.

While JohnK usually doesn't make this specific: if an amplifier (or receiver) is designed to have a flat frequency response (and achieves this design goal, as I'm certain that all major mid-high end manufacturers are capable of) then they must, by definition, when level balanced, sound the same. The Sunfires would appear to be an exception, from your description.

As a psychiatrist, I heartily agree with your comment on suggestibility, whether conscious or subconscious, as a major factor in listening tests. Because I'm thrifty, I think that 's what led me to conclude there was little difference between the $3000 B&K receiver and the $1000 Marantz - ha!

But then, if all receivers are the same, wouldn't we all have bought ours for $200 at Best Buy or Wally World?

Hmm ... newbie confused ...

So, just to stir things up a bit more, which is the biggest factor in how my Rush CD will sound: the disc player, the receiver/amp, or the speakers?

The speakers. Hands down. I doubt that you'd find many people disagreeing with that.

$200 receivers often do not have the features that we're looking for (inputs, processing modes, video switching, etc.) Also, they may not have been designed well enough to be flat.

I too would say the speakers have the most impact on sq.