Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Receiver: Arcam vs Marantz vs Integra

Amen! can I get a witness?

I'm a witness! Speakers have the most effect, followed by the room. I don't think the influence the shape, size, and surfaces of a room can have on the sound of a system can be overemphasized.

I would almost argue that room makes more difference than speakers once your speakers are up to a certain level (and IMO Axioms are above that level).

Amen!
I really wish the audio community (magazines, e-zine reviewers etc.) would put more emphasis on educating the audio buying public (us?) about the importance of room acoustics.

... but then people wouldn't keep buying new equipment and new speakers in order to get the same sound their buddy has in HIS room

Wow, thanks a lot everyone for all of the helpful feedback. As my room is a little boxy and will be soundproofed by double sheet rock with green glue, I'm guessing that some curtains and/or some other sound absorbers will be needed liberally ...

An idiosyncratic orthodoxy has emerged on this site, an orthodoxy whose opinions have all the hallmarks of a "party line."

It is not surprising to hear folks announce that all amplifiers sound the same, or that different tubes of a type do not impart a different sound quality to a tube amp or other tube component. What is surprising is the mocking chorus which shouts down differing opinions.

First of all, to say that different tubes of type do not impart different sound quality to tube amps or output sections in tube components signifies to me that the proclaimer has no personal experience with tubes to base such an opinion. My experience of tube components is that different tubes (new, properly biased and performing to spec) have an obvious effect on sound quality.

Similarly, Alan Lofft's characterization of tube components as "distortion generators" is a laughable generalization, at least to anyone who has had the pleasure of listening to some of the wonderful tube amps and CD players with tube output sections currently on the market.

The idea that any solid state amp with similar output power rating and a similarly a flat frequency response output curve from 20Hz-20kHz will sound like any other amp with a similarly flat frequency response curve is demonstrably wrong. If this were the case, then folks who really 'know' would all be using the cheapest amp they could find. As to those here who hold the opinion that all amps sound the same, are there any among you who use separate amps? If so, would you let us know what kind of amps you use, and could you tell us whether you chose the cheapest amp you could find for your application?

You can look at your charts, but I suggest you listen to the music. As to A/B tests, I think they are valuable. I also think that much longer term experience with various components can reveal sonic qualities which are not immediately apparent in an A/B test. Ever notice how a system sometimes sounds better playing the same source material than at other times? If you have, how can that difference be revealed in an A/B test? It cannot because we are talking about perceived differences in an A/A situation. I think it would be fair to say that all similarly powerful amps with similar frequency response characteristics (flat from 20-20) will sound adequate or passable. Some will reproduce music with better sound quality - music magic - truer to the original source, more like live - with the same recordings - than others. Some will image better. Different amps will reproduce soundstaging differently. Some amps have better sound quality at lower volumes than others. It is not necessarily price dependent, but not all similarly spec'd amps are the same.

My opinion.

AMPS
T-Amps (modified) (7)
Kenwood KA9100
Yamaha M-80 (3)
Onkyo Integra M-504
Anthem PVA-5
Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT

CD SOURCES
Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CDP
Philips SACD1000
Toshiba SD9200
Sony CX 90ES
Sony CA 7ES
Pioneer DV 578A

Speakers
Axiom M2e
Axiom QS8
Axiom M3Ti (gifted away)
Axiom M22Ti (returned)
Axiom M50 (sold)
Thiel CS3.6
Michaura M55
Michaura M66
Michaura M665
Merak MC6H modified
Merak MC634 modified
Mission 77ds
Dahlquist DQM905 with Regnar upgrades

If the "party line" happens to be science and empiricism, I'll toe that line every. single. time.


Yet again, you are twisting words and obfuscating the issue. I am loathe to repeat myself needlessly, but since you obviously have not read any of my posts in this thread, I feel I am justified. I have not claimed that all amps sound the same. I have not claimed that different tubes sound alike. That is something you have invented as false evidence against the "idiosyncratic orthodoxy." (Might as well go all the way and call us the "axis of evil"....)

In reply to:

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Similarly, Alan Lofft's characterization of tube components as "distortion generators" is a laughable generalization

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Your inability to see that distortion simply means an introduction of something into or a substraction of something out of the original signal is laughable. Tubes do just this.

In reply to:

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The idea that any solid state amp with similar output power rating and a similarly a flat frequency response output curve from 20Hz-20kHz will sound like any other amp with a similarly flat frequency response curve is demonstrably wrong.

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Demonstrably wrong because of the evidence you cite? That people don't all own the cheapest amps? You call that evidence? Laughable.

In reply to:

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I also think that much longer term experience with various components can reveal sonic qualities which are not immediately apparent in an A/B test.

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The human being's auditory memory is demonstrably short. Any differences realized over the long term are most likely due to outside factors, not the least of which is faulty long term auditory memory. (It could be the relative humidity of the room, or you may have just gotten over a head cold that negatively impacted your hearing, etc., etc.)

In reply to:

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...truer to the original source...

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Ahhh. You should not have dropped that in your post. A well-designed solid state amp will pretty much always give you a truer to the original source output signal than a tube amp. (This goes back to the whole distortion thing.)

BTW, should be CA 9ES not CA 7ES, very nice CDP.

Of course the flat-worlders will tell you that all CD Players sound the same.