Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Axiom M60v2 vs. Thiel CS1.6

I realize this may be a shot in the dark, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. After much listening in various audio emporiums - comparing Thiel, Focal, Paradigm, Magnepan, Martin Logan, B&W, and a host of others, I had decided that the Thiel CS1.6 was the best speaker in my price range.

Since I'm posting in Axiom's forum, you've probably guessed that this isn't the end of my speaker hunt. While I absolutely love the sound from the 1.6's, I'm starting to balk on the high price tag. Ebay is of no help, as apparently no one who buys 1.6s ever sells them (I can't say I blame them, either). In fact, there are ads out there looking to buy used 1.6s. The one store locally that carries them sold their demo model, so my hope of discounted Thiels is about gone. I'm back to $2400 retail (more with the finish I want), plus tax. When you add in a center channel (assuming the new 1.4 is good match, it's still $1000 per speaker) and surrounds ($1200/ea. or more for the ceiling mount surrounds... or get two more 1.4's), I'm up to at least $5700 after tax. While I'm sure I'd be very happy with this setup for a long time to come, I have other financial irons in the fire that currently take precedence over my HT habit.

As my moniker suggests, I'm an audiophile (of the non snooty variety, I hope ) on a budget, which brings me here. After discovering direct sell audio places like Outlaw Audio and SVS subs, it wasn't too long before I found Axiom, which has thrown a monkey wrench into my HT plans (a good one, I hope).

This brings me to the reason for my post. Has anyone ever compared - directly or indirectly - the Axiom M60 to the Thiel 1.6? I'll be honest and say that I don't expect the M60 to be the sonic equal to the Thiel, but if I can get to the magic 90th% range, I think I can live with it, given the price difference.

One thing I look for in a speaker is midrange purity, lack of compression when the volume is turned up, fast attack in the mid-bass region, and airy high end that does not promote listening fatigue. Deep low bass is handled by my sub, so the lower octave-nad-a-half is not a necessity.

My current system consists of a Pioneer Elite <mumble>26<mumble>THX<mumble-something> reciever(why can't reciever manufacturers come up with reasonable model numbers?). I use the built-in amplification for center and surrounds. Rotel RMB-100's power the main speakers. The reciever will eventually be replaced with an Outlaw Audio 990 pre-pro (with existing external amplification by Rotel and NAD to drive the center and surrounds), but that will likley come after my speaker purchase. Bass will be handled by my new SVS PC-Ultra sub. I mention the components only because system synergy is always a consideration. Some speaker/amp combinations work well, others less so.

I think you should probably be comparing the M80s vs the Theils as opposed to the M60s, but I've never compared the two.

You're probably right. I'd be happy with this comparison, as well. My initial thought after reading reviews of both the 80's and 60's is that the 80's having an edge in bass extention, volume, and power handling, but the two speakers otherwise sound very similar. Not having heard either, this could be dead wrong, but that's what I'm going on for now.

I have heard two different models of Thiel. I can't remember which ones, but I found them to be totally gutless! It all depends on the sound you want of course. For me I want full impact and authority from my speakers.
I have yet to hear the M80s, but I believe they will do the trick!!

I'm not an audiophile-but I do appreciate nice audio equipment. Having lived in multitenant dwellings for most of my life I experienced my music in my car-and I've invested stupid amounts of money trying to get a good car audio sound with little to no success. Getting low lows and high highs is easy-getting the midrange to match the lows and the highs not so much-especially when you crank up the volume (or turn it down too low). I have the M80's for home now that I own a house and I can say that when it comes to treble/mid/bass the M80s stay consistent regardless of volume. Of course, I only have low end speakers to compare with my Axioms. When I was shopping I listened to some Definitive Tech speakers and didn't like them (too much bass, not enough anything else), some Paradigm Monitor speakers which I absolutely loved, and similarly priced B&W speakers which I also liked, but slightly preferred the Paradigms. I went with Axioms because they were compared to the higher end Paradigms for about the same price as the lower end Paradigms.

Since you sound like a much more discerning person than I am you might want to check out the audition forum and see if you can get an in person preview of the Axioms. I think Axiom gives people a 5% commission if you buy after the audition so you'd be doing someone here a favor too.

I have read many good things about the Thiels but have not heard them. I agree with the previous poster that hearing the Axioms yourself will help you decide if they are for you. Where do you live? If you are in the Houston area, I would be glad to have you over to listen. If there is no one in your proximity offering auditions, keep in mind that Axiom will let you return any purchased items within 30 days for a full refund if not satisfied (you pay for return shipping, of course).

I wish I could take you up on your offer, but I live in Ohio. Just a TAD too far. Maybe I can find someone closer.

I guess everyone has their own tastes in sound. I've yet to hear a Theil speaker that I didn't like. They require a bit of extra care in setup and front-end electronics to shine, though. Also, older Thiel speakers can be brutal to drive. They are generally inefficient, and can dip lower than 4 ohms, which will give some amplifiers fits - particularly if you like it loud. Not too many receivers will handle the load of a complete Thiel HT setup (even the easier to drive, newer ones), and fewer still would sound decent driving them (and I don't know of one that will drive such a setup to reference levels). If you have even moderately weak upstream electronics, you'll know right off with the Thiels.

This is another reason why I'm looking at other speaker options. The Thiels require (demand, even) uber-high quality amplification and front end to shine. My best amps are Rotel RMB-100s (mono-blocks), not the high-end stuff they have in the HT store used to demo the speakers. New amplifiers are not in the budget. The Rotels may sound good with the Thiels, but it won't be AS good as what I heard in the store, thus I will be disappointed until I can afford $X-thousand dollars to upgrade all the upstream electronics. I see an ugly and expensive cylce being started. Not that the Axioms wouldn't benefit from higher quality front end electronics, but from what I'm reading in here, they don't demand it up front as the Thiels would.

So far, unless convinced otherwise, I'm leaning towards the M60s. In addition to saving a lot of money, Axiom also has a real surround speaker. The Thiel bookshelf speaker would work, but I doubt I'd get the enveloping sound that the Axiom surrounds would give me.

I guess the real question is whether I need the VP100 or VP150 center. I'm thinking the VP150 would be a better match for the M60s. Also, what are the main differences between the two surround offerings? I'm leaning towards the QS8s, but only because the drivers match those found in the center channel speakers (at least in size), and the extra bit of bass extension may allow for better blending with the rest of the system.

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guess the real question is whether I need the VP100 or VP150 center. I'm thinking the VP150 would be a better match for the M60s. Also, what are the main differences between the two surround offerings? I'm leaning towards the QS8s, but only because the drivers match those found in the center channel speakers (at least in size), and the extra bit of bass extension may allow for better blending with the rest of the system.

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The 2 centers are a perfect match for the 60's but I believe the 150 plays a little louder for the larger rooms. The difference from the QS8 and 4 is pretty much the same idea, the 8's play louder and a little lower for SACD and DVD-A. But if the Xover gets set to 80 or 100 none of the speakers would have a different sound, that's well above any differences in the lowest any of them play to.

I have the VP 100 and QS8's, I listen to my system in the large setting I let the speakers roll off what they can't handle and it sounds great to me and I can take advantage of every little bit of sound they produce.

There are several Axiom owners (see below) listed on the audition thread that live in Ohio and have M60's (and 1 with M80's). You could PM one or more of those that may live close by and see if they are still active and would give you a listen.

Ohio
Cincinnati - M60s, VP150 (badger98)
Cincinnati - M60s, VP150, 4QS8s (COACH2369)
Cleveland - EP500 (ajax)
Columbus - M60s, QS-8s, M2i's and a VP150 (richcarp)
Columbus - M22s, VP150, QS8s - (TweedleyD)
Columbus - M80s, VP150, QS8s, and EP500 (nicholc2)