Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade

I guess I might as well throw in my 2 cents... should take us up to $1.14 or so.

Back before I blew out my HF hearing I spent a while building speakers and playing with crossovers - hobby, not professional. After a couple of years, my thinking was more or less :

1. For the things I could measure or easily hear, high quality components did not give noticeably different results from low quality components AS LONG AS the relevent specs were the same. I just measured resistance and capacitance; I didn't have the math to know exactly what to do with inductors other than measuring series resistance and staying with air core inductors 'cause I *did* understand them

2. Small differences in the values of the components *did* make a surprising difference in perceived and measured frequency response, more so than I expected. I don't remember the details, but I do remember that I was spending extra for more precise capacitors but was not spending for exotic resistors, which makes me think that somewhere around a few percent was the threshold.

3. The testing methodology I had was relatively limited - sometimes blind but not instantaneous A/B - so I had a tough time comparing things like soundstage width and seamlessness. I never felt that the speakers I made matched the best I had heard in that regard, although at the time I was probably underestimating the importance of the room.

So... bottom line for me is that if the crossover design is relatively complex or has sharp cutoffs, replacing the components with higher quality parts *could* noticeably improve the sound if the original components had sufficiently broad tolerances that not all speakers from the mfg sounded the same. Put differently, the benefit from the higher quality components would come from the tighter tolerances relative to the sensitivity of the crossover design even if the "higher quality" itself did not make a difference.

I don't understand enough about what affects the nuances of speaker sound, particularly soundstage and imaging, to be able to comment intelligently whether higher quality components could help there. Intuitively it seems like "higher component quality" alone should not be able to make a difference, other than tighter tolerances both new and as the components age, but I would also be interested in the results.

Oh yeah, I also learned that if I tweaked the crossover myself without either measuring FR or having other listeners involved I invariably "improved myself into a corner", where the sound was as good as I could make it but it sounded like crap compared to reference speakers.

Anyways, I think it's great that replacement crossovers are available for the M22s. The debate about the relative contribution of cabinet vs drivers vs crossover vs "optimizing across 'em all" was raging when I first got into speaker design 35-odd years ago and I certainly haven't found the definitive answer yet.

Finally, if anyone wants to visit Axiom for the test (assuming Ian has space in the listening room) but are on a budget, if you can get anywhere near Toronto by bus or whatever I would be pleased to provide low quality accomodation (albeit with good eats and good beer) plus transportation up to Axiom and back as required.

Bridgeman

Thanks for the informative post. I related to everything you said.

Maybe Ian can set up a streaming video connection and we can all watch without making the hadj to Canada.

John (Bridgman). So nice to see your name on the forum again. Dennis (Tharkun) was asking about you the other day.

Dial-Up does suck doesn't it John.

Synthguy……..

I find your thesis statement contradictory to the rest of your post. You start off stated you are not enamored by high dollar everything, but then you go on a rant justifying that very stance. So where do you stand?? Are you someone who believes you have to pay for quality or not? Are you someone who puts a price on sound quality or not??

I come from the nuclear industry. I know the difference between crap and quality. I get paid a good wage to ensure that things are done right, the first time and I am very well aware of just how much money goes into ensuring things are done right. I also know how much money is simply wasted by inefficiencies inflicted on departments by morons who can’t tell the difference between a screwdriver and an end wrench, but who insist in instructing a highly skilled technician how to use them. I’ve seen crap that costs many times that of the identical product, but with a significant improvement in quality by a different vendor or contractor costing much, much less. Your statements that you must pay to get quality just don’t hold water. This is amplified with products that are being produced for a consumer base that makes their purchasing decisions with vanity and peer status in the mix. Bose and Monster immediately come to mind. I’m probably being generous, but I’m going to say that Bose and Monster budget no less than 70% of their operating expenses into marketing. That cost is passed directly to the sucker that believes their BS. Wine is in the same category. I have many friends who refuse to drink a bottle of wine that costs less that $50 because to them, anything less than $50 is crap. Even after "fooling" them into loving the $20 bottle during a blind tasting, they continue to live by their silly $50 rule. Screaming Eagle at $2000 a bottle is a prime example. People who buy it do not buy it to drink. They buy it to be part of an elitist group. It has nothing to do with quality.

Axiom may be a ‘budget’ speaker, but the quality of their products does not have a large peer base. Their business model lends itself to allow them to put a higher percentage of operating expenses into R/D and quality control instead of marketing and buying components for no other reason than to satisfy an ignorant buyer’s lust for status and vanity.

John, it is excellent to hear your voice again.

I kind of like the way Mike calls "bullsh!t".

I love that game.

Bridgman,

This is a really nice offer you made to everyone. Unfortunately the measurements and the blind listen testing will not be happening. Skiing Ninja has changed their mind and decided they do not want to send any of their x-overs here for testing.

That's too bad. Did they say why?

mdrew,

Your points here are very accurate. I have run into many expensive parts that were both unreliable and of poor performance. You have to be careful not to let price be your quality barometer; it is the results that matter. On a personal coincidence my dad was also in the nuclear industry. He was an engineer at Atomic Energy of Canada and was fortunate enough to be there through some very exciting years. He was involved in the design of their first test facility at Chalk River right through to the Pickering plant.