Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater External Amp on it's way....

No no Rick, indeed they are right. The wonderful sounds actually do travel inside our heads through our ear canals!

Naw, Rick; no claim that it's "all in our heads". That's part of of it, of course, but the other part is not controlling the variables adequately, such as is done in a proper blind listening test. The most significant variable usually being the necessity to match the volume levels to about 0.1dB, which can't be done by ear. When the new unit is played slightly louder these observations about stronger bass, overall clearer sound, bigger sound stage, etc, none of which can be accomplished by any amplifier at the same sound level, appear. So you("you" meaning all of us)can't simply "Just trust your ears", the slogan so loved by audio salesmen making claims which have no factual support.

i agree with you micah.....a quality separate amp makes a big difference. i have tested my own system out with receivers and separate amps and quite simply there is a large difference. congrats on your new addition!

Ok I'm here to report something that I think I would definately be able to pick up in a blind test. After listening to 'Into the Ocean' by Blue October both through the Denon and then through the Emotiva, I noticed something unmistakable. When the Denon is controlling things the voiced sound very loud when the bass isn't present. Then as soon as the bass kicks in both the voices and the rest of the higher frequency sounds seem to drop a notch. I've noticed this on several songs in the past, but it's the only one I played with both set-ups. Once I hooked the M80's back up to the XPA-3 (I was only switching the M80's back and forth to save time) the upper frequencies never dipped when the bass hit. They remained at the same level, and the bass simply came in as if out of another speaker somewhere altogether.

I'm certainly no electronics expert, nor an audio nut who knows the X's and O's of these amplifiers. But my guess is that the M80's pull a certain amount of wattage out of the Denon, then when the bass comes in heavy that wattage has to be split between the 6 inch woofers and the 4 inch woofers + tweeters that are handling the voices and other high frequency sounds. With all 5 channels driven there must not be enough wattage to fully supply all the power the M80's need to keep the high frequencies playing at the same level once the 6 inch woofers start to rob them. But with the Emotiva (I just read through the instrucion booklet that came with the amp and it says it pushes 200 watts at 8 ohms and 350 watts at 4 ohms. The website showed 200 watts at 8 ohms and 300 watts at 4 ohms... so I'm actually getting an extra 50 watts than what I'd bargained for... SWEET!!!), they have plenty of power to run everything equally.

That's my theory anyhow. I don't know what else could be going on, but I definately noticed a difference in that respect. Pixie dust - 1, math books - 0

That's really good to hear Micah, and I have been considering a power amp for my front channels as well. I was just a little turned off by Emotiva due to the XPA-2 problems I have read about.

Quick question - Do you notice the Denon running significantly cooler now? Also, how hot is the XPA-3 when being pushed?

You can hear that a lot w/ low-budget DJs at the bowling alley or so; usually their amp will get overdriven much sooner than their speakers and that's exactly what you'll hear. So, what you are describing is fairly easy to distinguish and most likely it's not due to the placebo effect. On the other hand, I totally agree w/ JohnK's blind test argument. I think the question here is: at what SPL an 100watts Denon AVR start to show distortion/clipping. My opinion is that it happens much sooner than advertised.

In controlling the variables you have to test at equal standards across the board. For example, if power is a potential factor in the experiment, test at a low standard SPL so that power is removed as a factor before concluding on differences in sound between amp sections of equipment.
Obviously at high enough SPL the Denon receiver will fail in comparison to a separate amp in reproducing sound which has a more substantial power system.
More than once i've seen the lights dim on my Onkyo when i drive the 5 speaker system too loudly.

Wow, BIG scare just now!!! I was running the Emotiva most of the day yesterday, and was playing it at fairly high levels for quite some time last night. It performed flawlessly and I kept feeling the top of it (I moved it, I just couldn't take it being hidden away in the closet, so I modified the shelf below the tv to fit it by extending it out enough to accomodate the long XPA-3... there is no back to the shelf, and there is 3 1/2 inches on either side and 8 inches of clearance above it, so plenty of room to breath), and while it did feel warm, it never felt 'hot'. I also felt the Denon to compare it and it felt quite a bit cooler. But I never really felt it before while running it hard, so I couldn't tell you how much of a difference it made. Just that it did indeed run cooler than the Emotiva.

So anyways I was quite happy with every aspect of it's performance. I even left it hooked up to just the M80's for now as it will send around 400 watts to them in two channel mode! Ok so at the end of the night I shut her off and went to bed. Today I was out running around all day and when I got home around 45 minutes ago I immediately switched on the Emotiva (I just love watching those pretty blue lights come on). While it's hibernating the power button is red. Then when you push it a little red LED comes on in the lower left hand corner to signify it's checking channel 1. Then it goes out and a red LED comes on in the lower center of the screen to signify it's checking channel 2. Then it goes out and the same thing happens in the lower right hand portion of the screen signifying it's checking channel 3 and then the power button turns blue and all 3 blue LED's turn on signifying it's ready to rock. Well, as soon as I pushed the power button the first red LED comes on, hesitates for just a second, then starts flashing and the power button stays red... OH HEEEEEEEEEEEELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For about a minute, minute and a half I sat there stunned, thinking my experience was about to take the same turn as a few others on this board did. The first thought that came to my mind was, "that was fast"!!! Then I finally looked up and noticed the Denon was off. I rarely if ever turn the Denon off so my fiancee must have. So I turn the Emotiva off, turn the Denon on, then hit the power button on the amp again and voila, success!!! WHEEEEEW, HUGE sigh of relief!!! I was so scared that I had already broken this amp that it about made me sick. But luckily it was a simple error on my part that caused the confusion. I'm hoping this will be the only time I ever see that flashing red light!

The Emotiva was running warm to the touch, the Denon was warm as well but not nearly as warm as the Emotiva. I can't say I can remember the last time I checked the Denon while running it hard so it's hard to say if it was a big change or not. But it was indeed running cooler than the Emotiva, which wasn't running THAT hot really.

You will have to come over some time and check it out. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to convince you of buying a product that you're on the fence about the same as you did for me!

Why not use the DC trigger on your Denon? That way, you never ever have to worry about it. Damn...all this talk is making me want to buy the 1400-8. I'll never need it, but I really want it! Maybe I can rationalize the Emotiva XPA as a first baby step!