Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater bookshelf vs floorstanding

Julian, welcome. As is so often the case, one of the things that you "know" isn't so: a floor-standing speaker doesn't necessarily play louder than a bookshelf. The bigger enclosure is tuned to a lower frequency, so the bass can extend significantly lower, but this has no effect on the mid-range and treble. If the drivers in the bookshelf which handle the mid-range and treble are the same as those in the floor-stander, then the bookshelf can play the frequencies above the bass just as loudly and isn't at a disadvantage there in a large room at a farther listening distance. An Axiom example would be the little M2 and the much bigger M60, both with the 5 1/4" mid-range and the same tweeter. Above the bass the M2 plays just as loudly for a given distortion level.

So, a "big room" vs "small room" doesn't necessarily put a bookshelf at a disadvantage when a sub is handling the bass frequencies. My personal choice is the bookshelf(M22)plus a good sub(EP500), and of course this combination can deliver more volume than I can safely(for my hearing)use.

Incidentally, the Accessories4less Onkyo dealer that Rob Neill mentions does offer great buys, but unfortunately can't ship to Canada.

Thanks for the kind explanation, John.

If I want to set up M22 plus EP500 for a 7.1, then Epic Grand Master - 500 will be the choice and it's sold for $3,100.80. Actually, my initial plan was KEF KHT3005 which has uni-Q technique and it's sold for $900 at 2001 Audio Video. The problem is that the package sold there substitutes the sub and actually is not the original model that has won numerous awards. Therefore, I can't compare the quality of the sound. Anyone here has the chance to audition the 3005 model? How is it compared to Epic Grand Master - 500 or simply M22 and EP500? Does the extra 2K dollars spent on Axiom justify the sound quality overall?

Yeah, Accessories4less ships everything to Canada, only except for Onkyo@#$%^&

Depending on what you want to do there are lots of different configurations that will give you great sound for much less, espicaly since you are concerned with to much bass living in an apartment.

Couple possibities
m2 center, m60 or even 80 mains, qs8 sides, m2 backs or no backs

7 x m2s with a reasonable for your situation sub

5 x m2s m22 mains with a reasonable for your situation sub

7 x m3s might get away without a sub, i dont mind listening to mine without one but it does add to the sound when I turn it on.

3 m2s or m3s with qs8 sides with or with out sub

Or switch any of the above mains to m2 based setups to use m22 mains and or center

I would not substitute M2's for side surrounds. get the QS speakers, they are amazing surrounds.

Hello Julian,

Re. a post of yours, you'll get goose-pimples from an Epic Grand Master 500, which JohnK recommended and which I use much of the time in my living-room (19 x 13 x 9.5) in my NY apartment. I also have M80 v2s on an A/B switching system and much of the time, switching between the two systems with the EP500 sub running, they are almost identical. I often forget whether the switch is on "A" (the M22s/500) or "B" (the M80s/500). In addition, in modest-size rooms, the M22s are easier to ideally place for a great soundstage than a big pair of floorstanders.

As a former editor of Canadian audio magazines for 13 years, in which role I was able to do controlled blind comparisons of Canadian brands (Axiom, Paradigm, PSB, Energy/Mirage) against British (KEF, Celestion, B&W etc) and American brands, and I can assure you that Axiom will give you greater musical accuracy and neutrality than Kef "Uni-Q" models, which I always found somewhat colored in the midrange. Moreover, the best Canadian designs often equalled or bettered the Brit and US competition for a lot less money.

As to bass output and neighbors, you can always adjust the subwoofer level or overall loudness level if you get complaints. I lived in a semi-detached house in Toronto for a decade and if I ran the subwoofers too loud, the lay order of nuns next door complained. So I'd turn it down; likewise, in a Toronto high-rise in a poorly insulated building sound-wise, I really had to be careful or the neighbor across the hall would pound on my door.

For your application, the M22s plus a sub will deliver loud, clean playback to the levels I've measured in Carnegie Hall and the Metropolitan opera in very good seats (peaks of 98 to 100 dB SPL, which is very loud).

JohnK is incorrect in stating that the M80s offer no advantages over the M22s in delivering maximum clean loudness levels. The M80s have dual 5.25-inch midranges, dual 6.5-inch woofers and dual tweeters--six drivers per speaker vs. the M22's three--and when pushed, there are limits to smaller speakers. I recall writing notes in blind listening tests with Dr. Floyd Toole, Ian Masters, Sean Olive and others to the effect "sounds like a smallish 2-way speaker working hard at high volume" when we'd do comparisons at loud (but not deafening) levels.

In a practical sense, the M22s and a sub have excellent power handling and such comparisons as the above would only become audible in a very large room at very loud playback levels.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks for the detailed clarification, Alan. By the way, I watched all your videos on YouTube last night and they are really useful and practical, thanks a lot!

Now I have a question for Epic Grand Master - 500. Since the center in the package is VP150 but I am kind of intrigued by VP 180. How are these two centers compared to each other in terms of sound quality in a living room about 12*24?

I also noticed that the impedance for VP180 is only 4 Ohms while that for VP150 is 6 Ohms. I've heard that low impedance speaker will lose details and clarity due to high currents. Is that correct? What are the advantages for low impedance speaker?

That's incorrect.

Check out this thread, it should be a few comparison: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310941&page=1

High current demands can cause speakers to lose detail or clarity. This would be caused by the amplifier or receiver running out power which results in clipping (nasty distortion) coming out of the speakers. As one of the advantages of low impedance speakers is that they can draw more power from the amplifier, the disadvantage is that it can be more demanding on the power supply either causing the electronics to go into clipping more quickly, overheat and possibly shut down. Electronics that have high quality power supplies and lots of headroom will not run into this problem.

Now impedance is only one factor that determines how difficult or easy a speaker is to power. You also have the sensitivity, phase angle as well as the users listening habits (how loud) and room size/listening distance. The speakers specifications are all determined by the designer -# and type drivers, crossover design etc. Sensitivity is self explanatory, the phase angle which is sometimes shown with impedance draws current above what the impedance is at a given frequency. The more negative the phase angle at a given frequency the more current that will be needed to meet the power demands. All in all it is a pretty complex subject that combines many factors.

Julian,

Ignore impedance ratings; "impedance" is an electrical trait of speakers and has nothing to do with sound quality. It tells you only if a speaker will draw more current from an amplifier at some frequencies (impedance varies with different frequencies) and therefore be a more difficult load for some amplifiers/receivers that might be unstable driving 4-ohm loads. Larger multi-driver speakers like the M80s tend to have lower impedances in the region of 4 ohms, so we recommend some brands of amplifiers and A/V receivers that have been proven to be stable driving 4-ohm loads.

Higher-impedance rated speakers (6 ohms, 8 ohms) are an "easy" load for any receiver or amplifier; for example, the M22s are rated at 8 ohms and are easy to drive.

As to center channel speakers, the VP180 is a no-compromise center speaker that is spectacularly good for any type of music or dialogue. I'd call the VP150 "pretty good"- but not in the same class as the VP180. Note that the VP150 is perfectly satisfying for movies and home theater. It's just that when it comes to nuances of, say, male and female vocals, the VP150 isn't as smooth and totally free of flaws as the VP180. But understand that I'm a bitchy critic of loudspeakers and sound quality--one of the reasons Ian hired me--and in the double-blind listening tests, the VP180 was the first center-channel speaker I found completely free of any sonic flaws. It's essentially an M80 on its side with the drivers rearranged and the crossover modified significantly.

Alan