Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Can Speakers be Too Big for the Room?

Forget this. I found the answer in another area. I'll let you know when pics are available.

I have 3 pictures of my room I would like to upload but cannot find the link that "Forum Help" says should be visible. See Can I attach a file to my post? in help.

Here are 3 pictures of my room in case that helps.

1. Looking down the length of the room from the only open doorway (30" opening). Speaker fronts are 43" from side walls and 34" from front wall.

https://goo.gl/photos/KSLNYfLR2e9WoXLK7

2. Right side of long wall. Speakers here will straddle patio doors. The challenge in placing speakers along long wall will be getting far enough away from them. A couch behind the LP will put LP about 40" in front of the rear wall minimum.

https://goo.gl/photos/kCXyaEBTVTF6K8VR7

3. Left side of long wall.

https://goo.gl/photos/FbAsjen7PqpYGFBg9

Throw the two arm chairs out and move the speakers 1/3 of the way into the room. Space them so they're 30" from the side walls. Put that black chair 8 or 9 feet away from the speakers. Then enjoy.

Warning: once you do this, you may never put those two arm chairs back!

Are you using any sort of equalizer settings (like Audyssey or the like?)

Hi Tim,
Just a few observations on your questions and continuing quest to improve the sound from the M80s in your room.
Yes, to your question about using the 9-volt battery at the speaker terminals (or with a short speaker lead attached if it makes it easier). The battery will activate all the drivers but by putting your ear close to each one on the front baffle, you can isolate its operation from the other drivers.

That nonsense in the manual for your amplifier is just that: nonsense. Some years ago, there was a faddish interest in the notion of "absolute polarity" -- that if a recording showed reversed polarity, you should adjust your system to reflect that, thereby "hearing" the recording playback in the same sequence of compressions and rarefactions that occurred in the recording. There is no scientific support for this idea. Sounds are made up of rapid compression and rarefaction of air molecules, and whether it's a positive pressure change or negative one makes no difference to the perception of the
sound and its timbral quality by our ear/brain system.

Stereo is an imperfect illusion. To quote Dr. Floyd Toole, the Canadian scientist and pyschoacoustician, all you can hope for is a "plausible recreation" of a musical event. Stereo with good loudspeakers can manage small ensembles rather well -- think string quartets and the like, or a small pop group or jazz ensemble. But a large orchestral work with a massed choir and soloists? You get a suggestion of the experience but it's a far cry from the real thing. One of the intrinsic limitations of stereo is that the two front loudspeakers fire all the musical energy plus all the reverberant energy at your ears from the front, whereas the reverberant information should come from the sides, as it does in concert halls and other live venues. You might consider adding a surround facility to improve the illusion. Dolby and dts both have effective systems to extract reverberant information from 2-channel recordings and re-direct those sounds to side speakers in a 5-channel configuration. I do much of my classical listening using Logic7, a proprietary system from Lexicon, which is owned by Harman. I'm sure there would be objections about additional speakers from your spouse, but I assure you the "plausible illusion" is greatly enhanced by multi-channel playback of a variety of recordings. (It doesn't do much for dry studio multi-miked recordings; live recordings, choral, classical, opera and jazz benefit the most.)

Nice to know you play the viola. I studied violin for many years and played in several local orchestras (Woodstock, Ont), and the U. of T. symphony.
Of course, our quest to improve the illusion in our homes is what makes this hobby fun.

The PSB Alphas were nice little bookshelf speakers, not in the same class as the M22s or the M3s, but pretty neutral overall.
And the Advents in their time were very good.

Ken C has a point. I am not a fan of Audyssey and other auto-EQ systems (nor is Ian C., the founder of Axiom). They have some utility in smoothing out bass response, but they can make good neutral loudspeakers like the Axioms sound bad. So turn them off and listen to the M80s unsullied by electronic manipulation of the M80s' excellent smooth frequency response. You can use it later on if you wish. (Audyssey does have the ability to make lousy speakers sound significantly better.)

Also, I'd ignore any advice about applying absorptive panels to "the first reflection points". This will diminish the envelopment and spaciousness of speakers like the M80s. You are not trying to turn your living room into the control room of a recording studio, with ultra-absorptive panels everywhere. Normal furnishings of most rooms, with rugs and the like, provide an ideal mix of reflective and absorptive surfaces.

I've known Kevin Voecks (the designer of Revel speakers) for many decades since he worked for Mirage. He has designed some excellent speakers for the latter as well as Snell and Revel. But keep in mind that Revel is a "luxury audio" division of Harman, and the Revels are aimed at a carriage-trade market, with carefully positioned prices for that market.

Although many audiophiles have difficulty accepting this, sound quality and musical accuracy do not correlate with price. I have heard various Revels and they're excellent, but there is no reason to believe that a smallish 2-way bookshelf speaker from Revel will be superior in sound quality to Axiom's M22.

I've not heard Paradigm's B15, but it seems it's a further evolution of the excellent Paradigm Reference Studio 20, at a much higher price. I own a pair of the Studio 20s and they are almost identical to the M22s, except for a slightly greater bass emphasis and a bit less overall linearity.

Regards,
Alan

Ken, the short answer to your question is "No", but I'm going to give the longer version in my reply To Alan Lofft's subsequent post. You should find it nearby. Thx.

Alan, thanks for your carefully considered reply. I feel very privileged to have your assistance, and that of the others who've taken the time to assist me. And I am taking all advice into consideration, but not necessarily acting on them all (one cannot, since in all such things, some options are mutually exclusive).

That's interesting about the 'polarity reversal' topic. When NAD came out with the C390DD, I believe it was another manifestation of NAD's approach to bringing higher-end technology to customers on a stricter budget. So the C390DD is perceived as being a 'black box' offspring of the M2. So I suspect that the polarity reversal menu item trickled down from the M2. Another, to my mind, less that truly useful feature is that on the back of the C390 there are 2 pairs of speaker binding posts. But they are not for "Speaker A / B" selection. Instead they are for bi-wiring. I don't know what to make of this attention to $8,000 speaker cables and $400 power cords. But I do know that when I get my system to the point where these are the next steps in the pursuit, I intend to pack it in and start listening for the joy of it (not that I don't already!).

Although I really like my C390, I do have some issues with features that are non-essential to it's DAC/amplifier premise.

Regarding equalization, to which Ken C referred, I do not use any active components in EQ. I have used Room Equalization Wizard (REW) to calculate filter values. REW is not an active player in the signal path. It is something like Odyssey in that using a computer and mic attached to the amp, one plays sweeps through the system.

REW running on the computer then calculates filter values to compensate for room factors. My amp permits adjustments at 6 fixed frequencies, 40/60/90/120/180/240 hz. Once I've done that, I enter those values into my amp and put REW aside. The values REW calculated are in the range of +2 / -6 dB for my room, and when I toggle EQ in/out, the sound is better with EQ enabled. Playback does not involve REW.

Of course, the values REW calculates depend upon where the speakers are located in the room and where the microphone is positioned (i.e. the intended listening position) at the time the sweeps / calculations are performed.

It is true that each time I change something in the room, I should redo the REW tuning with EQ set off on my amp so that REW can calculate new values. I haven't been doing so for minor adjustments like moving the LP back or forward a few feet or removing toe-in.

I'm enjoying this conversation, so if it continues I will not be disappointed. On the other hand, I think my original question has been answered along these lines:

Yes, speakers can be too big for a room. But in my case the M80's should be quite workable in my room. In other words, I am not pursuing something that is impossible under my circumstances.

All of this makes me feel good in having chosen the M80's and the C390DD.

btw, IMHO the C390DD outfitted with the DD-BluOS plug-in module is a beautiful means of going all-digital. Controlled by the NAD-supplied tablet app, one has access to locally stored audio files up to 192/24 resolution, streaming "radio" stations and streaming on-demand sources including Spotify and Tidal.

Cheers everyone!
Tim

Tim, since the people who deserve an opinion have weighed in at length, I now feel free to contribute nothing useful to you.

My room is a foot longer than yours. I had M60's for 4 years. They were truly perfect for the room in every way. I now have M100's. They are perfecter.

My rules of thumb are, "Do they fit through the door, and can two of them and me all fit in a room at the same time?"

It's actually an old Rock and Roll guitar amplifier joke, but I think it's a universal truth.

That's so simple ... why didn't I think of that? ;-)

Thanx Bob

Mojo, you did it! Today I rearranged the room pretty much as you suggested. I was here a few months ago, but had less furniture in the the room, speakers closer together, and before the DD-BluOS module. Right now I'm listening to Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon. Beautiful! The reflection points are pretty much neutralized by the fireplace on the left and a soft armchair on the right. I'll post a couple of pictures tomorrow to show you all the difference.

Thanks all my new friends here! I hope I can someday return the favour. "That Great Gig in the Sky" is calling me to pay attention.