Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion What's New At Axiom LFR180

We have been playing around with a possible new product over the past few weeks; the LFR180. It is an omnidirectional centre channel you can make a complete LFR home theatre system across the front. The big 3-dimensional soundstage of the LFRs would be pretty cool for movies, as it is for 2-channel now. Just thought it would be nice to get everyone’s bent on this.

It's an interesting idea for those who are space-limited. Perhaps also budget-limited?

How do you envision installing/placing this?

Is this really an LFR though? It doesn't have a set of terminals for the front speakers and a set of terminals for the back and hence no DSP.

A four letter cuss word starting with F popped into my head....

Now I remember why I don't hang out around here much anymore.....

Frankly, Since the LFR 1100 was introduced, I was actually hoping, at some point, for a "straight" center channel that was omnidirectional in design which I would think offer a larger off-axis and enveloping sweet spot for dialogue and other sounds eminating from the center channel.

Ian, as you probably are aware, back several years ago, before they introduced their Omnipolar design, Mirage had a simpler center channel version of these with a speaker firing from the back, however, in a considerably smaller package. My thoughts were that perhaps although there would not be as many drivers or be quite as large as the one in the picture, however, is there or has there ever been any thoughts of producing such a speaker as strictly as a center channel with, of course, just a single connection?

I am confused. Is one set of terminals for the front drivers and the other for the rear? Or is this center intended to be used as a replacement for L/C/R?

Just a thought. Why dont you guys start in another direction. When you iterate on existing products you alienate existing customers who may have just purchased your prior totl product. There are several members who have shared dissapointment that they thought they were buying your best, then you offer better months later.

Maybe call the speakers something else unrelated to what you are doing now. I think most other brands do a 5 or 7 year cycle then refresh the entire lineup. Make them look different and make your current totl the baseline for the new products pedigree. A different wrap, shape, layout, whatever. Make something new and let Andrew run with his ambitions. Tease out the process with behind the scenes design vids, tests and finally the big reveal. You guys have a great team, and products, but when it comes to engaging your audience you have a huge untapped opportunity.

A lineup around 8" driver based would be my suggestion. Then smaller isobaric subs with bigger amplifiers. Forget the old. On with new and more importantly completely different.

The trade-up program is for those who must have the latest. I think it's a good deal for everyone.

The LFR180 has one input for the front and one input for the rear and uses a separate amp channel for each with a DSP to separate them at the pre-amp. We are able to put the right, left, and centre in one DSP box with three inputs and six outputs. An ADA six channel amp could then be used to run the front three channels.

On the topic of an omnidirectional with only one input for both the front and rear; this was discussed between Andrew and me before doing an omni. Andrew already had vast experience with omni speaker design. He knew the only way to design one without making compromises was to have separate channels driving the front and rear; and the goal for the LFR Series was no compromises. We need to have total control over the amplitude response curves of the front and rear driver compliments and the only way to do this is digitally at the pre-amp level.

A Different looking cabinet style / or series is long overdue. I know a lot of people on the "other forums" think Axiom's are old looking, boring. I'm not saying I agree, I think my speakers look good, but having the same exact shape and design for what 15yrs now? maybe it is time. These outrageously huge type of speakers are a niche product.

I thought the LFR180 would be like a high fidelity soundbar. I guess I was wrong.

To echo Newf's sentiment, I've always wondered how big the market is for this kind of gear and how successful Axiom could be at addressing this market. I suppose Axiom is seeing enough demand to justify this kind of R&D.

If the design of the cabinets has been perfected over the years for best sound production, why change it just for cosmetic purposes? After all, sound is of the main importance to me.

There are lots of fugly speakers out there that are trying to look cool or different from the herd. There is too much of that going on out there IMO, but it is a great marketing tool for some manufacturers.

Axiom speakers in real wood with a high gloss finish look as good as anything in their class & better than most. My tall, slender M22s in HG Rosewood are understated in design & are positively elegant...

TAM

FWIW, I truly don't care about the aesthetics of a new cabinet. I agree with TAM. None of my buddies do either. Yes, Socketman...I have buddies. We often get together and burn our vinyl.

I agree with tom. too many of these speakers look so garish and the plastic crap does nothing to enhance how they sound or improve looks. i think this is Axioms niche in the market.

Looks are a preference thing. Clearly some people do not like the Axiom cabinet. I frequent a lot of forums. The downside of being inured and having no life = lots of internet time. I think it looks good, I think their real wood work is freak'n gorgeous. I will also stand by and say that my oldest set from 2005 are still to this day brand new looking whereas both my SVS subs started pealing after 3 months! So no more SVS for me. Axiom makes a good cabinet.

But why not try a different style? Look at Paradigm, probably Axiom's biggest Canadian competitor, they have different series, some WAY over done, some very nice, some beyond pricey and some simple boxes. Yes I know, Paradigm is quite large. Point is their lineup covers a lot of tastes whereas you either like the Axiom cabinet....or you don't and since they are ALL the same, if you do not like em, you are heading to another brand.

Even simple improvements would help. Stop using the big screws on everything. (They must have one screw driver type in the entire company lol...very handy though) Every tweeter and woofer has screw heads sticking out of them. Make flush mounted screw heads. Make a screen that is flush or hidden on the cabinets and do not stick out so far. Sometimes the tiny details make a huge difference.

This great big center...I don't know what "I" would do with it. Cool looking, but personally, I have no use for it. I do have use for Bookshelves with 8" drivers, or a slimmer VP160, or a specialized sub/stand combo for an AxiomAir...or more money to buy things with.

I have watched the videos of how Axiom makes their speakers, the vinyl is on the board before routing it then its folded together so it kind of limits the overall look of the cabinet. All that plastic stuff requires dies to be made which is very expensive and time consuming. So much stuff is made in China where you just cant compete with the cheap labor though Axiom does make i think tweeters there. The market is so crowded now it often amazes me that so many speaker are needed and that so many survive. I look at my M80's and i wonder what I or Axiom could do to freshen up the look and i have no vision so hopefully Ian has some ideas. Only so many ways to dress up a wooden box and still make some money doing it. I thought mabe some aluminum around the drivers but a water jet is a couple hundred grand. Maybe we need to share some pics of speakers we like for inspiration.

I swear my phone makes me look dyslexic

I'm interested in an omnidirectional center, but I also want to return to a vertical center. I won't be moving to a projector with an acoustically transparent screen, so it can't even be as tall as the LFR660, so I understand the point of horizontal centers. My ideal would be an omnidirectional version of the M5HP. As it is, I'd lean toward a normal M5HP over this LFR180, but I think it's a great option to have in the lineup.

I agree with the comments for the most part. I was looking at my Axiom products on the weekend (M80's, VP150, EP350, QS8) and was noticing how "home made" they looked - for lack of a better term. As most of you know, I have been an Axiom fan since the late 1980's and continue to love the sound/value proposition. I have stated before that I have owned speakers well beyond the price and performance of the Axiom lineup, but Axiom is the only brand to continue on my life journey.

The overall designs keep getting bigger, and this one looks like a monster. I still think about the Totem Mani 2's and how incredible they sound for such a small speaker.

But then I think about the Reference 3a Suprema's and how awesome they sound...and how huge and heavy they are...

Ok, were was I going with this...oh yeah, I really think a refresh of cabinet design is necessary, The market seems to drive what and where Axiom develop products, but I cannot honestly say anything in the last 5 years has caused me to invest time and $$$, or even caused me to take a second look.

This product makes no sense. An omnidirectional center channel contradicts the fundamental purpose of a center channel -- to firmly anchor dialogue and enhance clarity and intelligibility (for movies) or center-mixed singers/instrumentalists-- in the center of the image, so it doesn't default to the left or right channel with off-axis listening, whether in a 3-channel or multi-channel setup, Dolby Digital 5.1 and its extended iterations.

Adding omnidirectional or diffuse energy to a center channel will only degrade dialogue intelligibility and and reduce stable center-channel imaging.

Alan

Hi Alan,

The reason we use separate amp channels and a DSP for the front and rear is so we can avoid the typical problem of omnidirectional speakers smearing the image. Our LFR series has pinpoint imaging just like a direct radiator, plus the added benefits of the image not changing off-axis and a more 3 dimensional overall soundstage.

I don't know about this product Ian. A human voice is not like an instrument. Sound doesn't come out the back or sides of a person's head and illuminate the back or side walls. I am of course open to learning and being convinced that the effect you are after is appropriate.

Hi Mojo,

It is really about total radiated sound power. If someone is facing away from you, you can still hear them speaking, even in an anechoic chamber. A speaker works the same way and one of the most important set of curves about how a speaker will sound is the sound power average of curves. It's close cousin, the directivity index, is also important. By having drivers mounted on the rear of the speaker with a separate amp channel being controlled through a DSP we have almost endless control over every curve radiated from the speaker all the way around that make up the sound power and directivity index.

I do see your point now. We have to keep in mind the entire speaker radiates - not just the drivers. Controlling the total radiation is what's important. Thanks.

I think this is a brilliant and exciting idea. One of my ongoing challenges in watching TV programs is that so much of the content is collapsed to the center. Yes, I've tried all the Dolby modes etc. (although - to be fair - my receiver is aging).

I'm going to paste below what I wrote on the related FB post.

My lens is currently a projection system, so I only have ~24" of space under the screen to work with, and only about 12' away.

I'm a little confused about placement. It looks (and seems) like you'd just set this thing on the floor in front of your screen. But how much benefit can you get from the rear drivers being that low? I suppose you'd HAVE to put it on a stand, which would eliminate use in any non-acoustically-transparent projection screen installation. And if you did put it behind an AT screen, you'd have to make that a live environment instead of a dead one. So, it seems like it would need to be in the room, in a big room, on a stand, and yet somehow not compromise the viewing angle. How about if you redesign the box so that the front baffle AND the back baffle are both tilted up so that it is designed to sit on or close to the floor?

Because if I aim the current design up towards the listener, then the back drivers are going to be aimed down at the floor. So the only way this thing "works" is if the tweeters are at about ear level and the speaker is mounted level. I don't want to "look at" the center speaker; I want to "look at" the screen (about 1/3 of the way up).

Make the front and back driver assemblies/baffles two separate units that are hinged at the top?

Before i ever got into HT i had my 2 channel setup which i connected my VCR to. The ol brain bucket had no trouble associating the voices from the speakers with the actors on the tv the imaging was spot on. All sounds are heavily reflected so i see no reason what ian is proposing wont work, god and Ian only knows what goes on inside the dsp.

Just ran my head cleaner the other day and the vhs are lookin good but not as good as my beta's.

Alan:

For me this design of speaker and my ultimate desire is a center channel that hopefully can solve much of the problem of off-axis performance which all front-firing center channels, regardless of design, suffer from to one degree or another.

Andrew is probably familiar with the Mirage Omnipolar design and I owned one in which, ultimately, although it was too small for the system I was building(I eventually sold it), it did provide a very good center channel focus of dialogue and other sounds along with an off-axis performance that was so good I could actually walk up to the side of it, almost at a 90 degree angle and the off-axis performance was such, even standing off to the side that much, it was almost as good as standing right in front of it.

If Axiom came up with performance of anything close to that stature, I would purchase it in a heartbeat.

Hi Casey01,

It was Andrew's intention to make the LFR Series better than his Mirage Omnipolars. Hence the need for two separate channels front and rear.

My three cents worth.

1 cent) I think this LFR800 would best be used as competition to the speaker bar other companies have. Seems Axiom is trying to reinvent Dolby, Arur-3D, DTS sound fields.

2 cents) I love the finish on my real wood Cherry M22 also, TAM

3 cents) I think Axiom should upgrade that Mid Range Driver to keep up with the Tweeter and 6.5” HP Woofers. I think it lacks behind now. I mean yes with the normal M80, 60 it is in its zone. But how can you create better Tweeters and Woofers and just throw in a normal mid range. It just doesn’t do that HP line justice.

4 cents) Axiom did what I was wanting, about 3 months later as mentioned above. I was wanting a speaker like the M5HP and I bought the M22 in Nov, just to come out with the M5HP two months later.

5 Cents ) I think if Axiom is going to have these improvements why not have a decent looking, connection plate. That speaker wire connection plate that cheap plastic makes the speakers look like cheap parts all around. If just for the HP, LFR lines have a nice piece made in white metal or something with great binding posts and great rid of those cheap black n red nuts. They make it look cheap. I mean look at Paradigms binding posts or B&W . Little details go along way.



Ok my 5 cents

I would trade in the M22s for the M5HPs and be very happy doing it. I am betting the M5HPs will sound better than my M80v2.

What makes you think the midrange driver needs improvement?

I personally don't want to pay for fancier terminals.

I like the old clear ones. To me they felt nicer and,IMHO, they looked better too.

As for the terminals, just on the HP line of speakers or even the real wood orders.
And yes I like those clear ones too.

Yes, I think I would/will be very happy with those M5HP. Just got a few other things to get first, QS8's and EP500. then upgrade the M22.

Not so much " It needs Improvement " but I didn't think the tweeter needed improvement, either. Just, the tweeter had improvements done. The Woofers had an upgrade for better higher performance. If the tweeter and woofers and cross overs needed improvement, just think the 5.25" could get some lovin too, I mean this is probably the most important and used driver of them all. I mean we set the M80's to small throw in a sub and let it take over at 80hz. given the mid starts at what 100 hz to 2khz it is the most used, give it some love, thats where the noticeable difference will be. I mean with my M80, I would almost bet my paycheck if the M80v4 and M80HPv4 are side be side with A/B switching and dual EP500 subs. You would not tell the difference.
Turn off the subs, yeh I can see how you would.
However, the sub does not play in the mid range frequencies,

and just think, if the mid range got some love, just how much those M22's and M2's would sound

...and how much more they'd cost.

Change for the sake of change doesn't equal "improvement". I'm sure that when/if Ian is convinced he CAN make a "better" midrange, he will do so. Why wouldn't he?

The LFR180 looks like a tremendous addition to the line up - if I already didn't have a VP180 HP, it would be an easy decision.

As for the "Stale" look of the Axioms ... My Klipsch La Scala II's have the same basic look going back about 50 years (when the Belle Klipsch was the "domestic" version of the La Scala - now all La Scala's have that look), as do the Klipschorn and Heresy models.

I think the look on the Axiom, especially with wood finish, is classic and beautiful. I far prefer it to the "bent veneer - polished look" of all the stuff coming out of China.

For whatever reason, there is a group of on line guys who just have to "rag" on Axiom products.

It is a real shame that more people cant opt for the real wood option, this is where imho the Axioms speakers look their absolute best.

I've experienced it and have read where people really need to check to see if real wood was shipped by mistake.
When I unboxed my current M80's I was very impressed with the finish.
It truly is a shame they are behind a screen.
I might order a pair off the refurb site and swap out the L&R once my youngest is heavier than the speaker.
That or maybe go the real wood route but only to get the green I seen 2-3 years ago. They were beautiful (to me).

I was not implying the vinyl is not top notch but its still second to a real wood finish. I like shiny stuff and multiple coats of urethane over the wood looks so much more upscale, at least for me it does. Since you have yours behind your screen i would not really worry about it. I grew up in home where the stereo was the center piece of our living room, my moms china cabinet played second fiddle (sic) . LOL .

Yep... when I was growing up the finest piece of furniture I ever saw was my parents "hi-fi" - an AM/FM/phono in an extraordinarily nice wooden cabinet with pretty decent speakers. Apparently I grew up on a wide range of classical music but my absolute favorite was Bizet's opera "Carmen".

Over time my tastes degraded/expanded to include things like "Witchy Woman", "Rock On" and "Monster Mash". I bet the 45's are still in the record drawer, will check next time I visit.

Used to be in ours too.
They we moved, built a dedicated room, etc.
I'd like to have both. Keep the theater and have a nice pair upstairs.
Its kind of a double double wammy. I have nice speakers in a relatively noise resistant room (sound getting in was priority over sound getting out) but lost the ability to listen any and all the time.

Whenever im in the kitchen cooking and doing dish's i throw an album on . The smoke detector lets me know when dinner is ready .

Have been busy with other stuff but thought I should join this LFR party. Just wondering if there could be some kind of wall bracket to allow mounting above a TV and an optimal distance out from the wall? Also when will the matching surround speakers be ready?

I think a different model designation will be necessary. How about LFR550C?

I want one now even though I don't need it. Oh, and I need a separate sub for it too!

You’ll need a horizontal ep800 to go with it. Just saying.

That's a really great idea. I'll need two stacked horizontal 800s serving as a stand for the LFR180.

I was partially serious. I’m really into symmetry and balance, it’s almost an illness really. Even when looking at pics of amplifier layouts if to power supply block or toriod is centered and the filter caps are centered and equal I get a dopamine hit. Especially if the control knob layout is symmetrical and balanced too, dam it’s good.

That’s why I think a horizontal ep800 makes sense. But 2 is even better. You’d have to isolate them from each other though.

I'm totally serious. No need to isolate based on my experience with stacking various combos of 500 600, 800 and EP125.

Symmetry in the electronic assembly you described can be very important but not for electrical reasons. Electromagnetic, mechanical and thermal for sure.

I believe you. I think it’s awesome. I love that you just try schit and see how it goes.

There’s a couple b stock / refurb ep 800 in there right now….

As for symmetry, for me it’s about aesthetics but I think an added benefit is it also naturally leads to function and stability overall when things have a good balanced layout or design.

Colocated 800's would be epic.

Dual 1600s is betterer!

I can totally picture dual 800 and lfr Center channel plunked right in the middle of your setup there.

Those 800 in the refurb are vertical oriented.

Where in the room is your 800 located right now? Or st least where do you put the 800 when you’re stacked lined that?

The 800 is one foot behind my head right on the back wall. My head is right between the two drivers. The bass out of that thing is liquid, silky and makes me wanna rub myself all over it. It is AWESOME!

I don't care how much Ian thinks the 600 is just as good as the 800. I've got two 600s and four 500s and I'd take one 800 over all those.

I had a grade 10 student listen today who knew nothing about audio systems but she's been playing electric bass for many years. She was astounded with the growling and articulate notes spilling out of that behemoth. She also couldn't believe the stage and imaging she's been missing listening through headphones.

Oh nice. That works right into my symmetrical plan for your room. An 800 up front on Center duty and you’re set.

Are the sub channels all dsp’ed too via the LFR system ? HOow do you manage all the bass so it’s not overloading the room ?

The LFR DSPs manage the front left and right 500 subs.

The QS10s' 500 subs are fed directly from my Onk surround pre-outs. These get the same full range signal as the QS10s. The subs are set to 150Hz using the 500's cross-over knob.

The LFE subs (800, 2x600) are fed from the Onk's .1 channel.

Managing the bass has been experimental. I can't be sure it's been optimized because I lack instrumentation and granular adjustments. But it sure sounds incredible.

Great job