Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion What's New At Axiom LFR1100 Active

Totally fair question. There is definitely not a linear relationship between cost and performance, and the knee of the curve is somewhere around the M3. Past that you get continued improvements in sound quality plus the ability to fill larger rooms (or play more loudly) but you are definitely dealing with diminishing returns per $$ and your money is getting you nuances rather than night-and-days.

One of the reasons I was so excited about the M5HP was that IMO it gave Axiom a "this is as good as most people are ever going to need" bookshelf speaker, which I felt was a gap in their lineup previously.

That said, if you do have a large room to fill then going to larger speakers does give you more than a nuance in benefits. For a smaller room it gets tougher to justify going much past M5HP or M60 from a value perspective, although the larger speakers are still going to sound better even so.

Going from regular to LFR is arguably another expensive nuance, but one I definitely wanted to try.

Since I don't play my system very loudly these days I don't expect to get more than another nuance going from passive to active crossovers, but (a) I grew up on active crossovers - talk about a mis-spent youth - and (b) I really like the work that Ian and Andrew have been doing and am really interested in the possibilities that come from doing the active crossover in a DSP rather than a few op-amps.

Bottom line - do I expect a big difference between passive and active LFRs ? Nope. Do I expect some interesting nuances which I might or might not find really desireable ? Yep.

I do agree with your point about being able to listen to the speakers... the "internet direct" model works exceptionally well with smaller speakers but starts to get a bit strained once you are talking about LFR1100s and a stack of electronics that comes up to your waist. It probably would be worthwhile for Axiom to set up a listening room with a permanent set of LFR's that can be A/Bed with other speakers from their lineup for a while, just so more people can see and hear what they can do.

If you are not able to connect with Ian while you're up in the area and I do go ahead with trading to the actives, I would be happy to haul them out to your place so we can A/B them with your speakers.

John, I've discovered some very interesting things in my listening sessions with the M3, M5, M100, 1000-3 and 1000-5.

First, when watching movies, the mains don't matter. Surprise! I can't hear a difference between any of the above models in 5.1.

Second, when watching movies, the external amps don't matter. Surprise! My Onk is more than good enough for my 4,200 cu. ft. room and 13 foot MLP.

Third, for 2.1, the speakers matter a lot - a lot more than external amps. As I've said umpteen times, the soundstage and imaging are very similar between these three models and that's where it ends. The M5 is worth every penny over the M3. It is more than twice as good. No one I know wants the M3 when they hear the M5. The difference between the M3 and M100 is very stark. Not so between the M5 and M100 but when one listens closely, one hears things they can't unhear. The hand claps in Unsquare Dance sound like hand claps on the M100. On the M5, you know they are hand claps but they sound less human. You'd never know they can sound better than the M5 until you've heard the M100! My buddy (and Ian knows this) listened to my M5s numerous times and was very moved with the sound. But when he heard the M100s, when he heard those hand-claps, he wanted to buy them off of me. Then his wife stepped in and we all know how that ends.

Fourth, if you want the realistic sound of M100s, you better have a big room or they will boom like the dickens. You can plug the ports, apply XT32 and they'll still boom. Besides, plugging the ports changes their character. This is why I find the M5s to be the sweet spot. They work in big or small rooms and they sound excellent enough.

Fifth, for 2.1, external amps can matter. If you are planning on running the gain around 0, even the M3 sounds better with a 1000 but I wouldn't recommend running an M3 that loud because it's at the limits. If you're running M5s, the 1000 may not be enough for some songs unless you're sitting 8 feet away. And if you're running the M5s that loud in 2.0, you will hear distortion because a single HP driver can only go so far. If you're running M100s, the 1000 can be very good and anything more is for longer listening distances than mine or for very short periods of listening otherwise you will go deaf. Even the 1000 though has its limits and I can shut it down before the Onk pre-amp, M5 or M100 give up. That's where the 1500 comes in and can take the M100 right up to its compression limit.

Sixth, even in a largish space like mine, with M100s, I can live with my Onk with no regrets. Not so with M3s or M5s because in 2.1, they don't have the 'nads for some very dynamic material.

Yep, that pretty much matches my understanding although I have not yet had a chance to listen to M-100's. The jump from M3 to M5HP is significant, and going to tower speakers makes a difference when you need to fill a large room.

I am very happy with my older M60ti's for HT and have no plans to ever replace or upgrade them. I do need to get off my butt and hook up the new UDP-203 via analog to the HK630 so I can have 7.1 and then wire up the M2ti's as rear surrounds, but that's as far as I ever expect to need to go.

That said, I haven't even been up to the loft (where the HT is set up) in a couple of months.

I don't know what's going on with you, man. Where are your priorities? LOL.

Strange. I would have thought that movie tracks could be just as demanding as music, especially with sounds like gunshots/explosions, and dynamic classical scores. Maybe it's the center channel that matters most here.

Bman, you got that right about the center channel. I measured 16 times the power going into my 160 vs the M100s in a GOT dragon destruction sequence. I had 8W going to the M100s and 128W to the 160.

Also, it could be there's so much going on in movies, it's hard to be critical compared to 2.1 music.

Solid test material! 16x the power is pretty insane. That's a good point about critical listening as well. Holds especially true in when a lot of surround activity is present.

I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting. When I first heard Axiom speakers in 1989, visited the factory and met Ian in 1990, joined this board in 2002, the basic premise was low cost, high quality sound. Real wood? Not a chance as the value is on the inside! Expensive speakers over $2k? Not a chance as that not be in line with the company mantra!

Now, dont get me wrong, I think the new products are exciting and could open the company and products to new fans. I have enjoyed the version updates and introduction/removal of new models (anyone still have a Sherwood receiver or the M40's - not to mention the original, non ASW AX3's that I first purchased)?

I think it is a great company, with solid leadership who are not afraid to push the envelope of busy and refine/design wonderful products! I cant say that LFR's and a stack of amps is something I have the desire to own anymore - that boat sailed with my Reference 3a Suprema's and Simaudio Moon amps in the 1990's, but I am glad the options are now there for those who do. Having heard the LFR's, EP800's and the ADA amps at the last Axiom anniversary party, I can say I wish they were around when I was heavily into gear as the end game - where now I simply enjoy the music/movies.

Congrats to Ian and team!

"I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting."

Indeed! One of the qualities I love about Ian is his hunger for knowledge. Another is his incessant drive to adapt to that knowledge and create new frontiers.

I'm hoping an active LFR180 will follow before long, even if it means even more channels of amplification to think about.