Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: politics

Just a side note...I find it astounding that this political thread has gone on for nine pages and has remained civilized. We can't talk about tube amps or speaker wires this civilly for more than three posts! Let's keep up the great conversation!

9 pages? try 22! Maybe it's time I boosted my posts per page count...

i got 11 pages, but i think i am at 20posts per page??

so, any critiques on the kerry speech last night?? i watched, but didnt hear everything that he said.. i was over at a buddies house(he's a republican), and he had just blown out his knee earlier in the day while wakeboarding.. ACL, MCL, tendons, patella, etc.. it was all tore up.. his dang knee was the size of a cantelope.. anyway, a bunch of us were over there so i wasnt able to hear everything kerry said.

i aint gonna go real deep, but the points i heard were good.. he hit all the hot topics, and spoke with a fair amount of verocity.. 45 minutes was right at the length where people would start to lose interest. i still think he needs to get more 'specific' on exactly how he plans to change the things he says he will change. to say it is one thing, to actually have a gameplan is something else.

all in all, good, but not great.. as long as he keeps his wife away from the microphones for the rest of this campaign, he should be all right. now the fun will be to see how the repubs chop up and pick apart his speech.. plus, we still have the great george w to speak. it makes me giggle just thinkin about it. watching him talk, is like sitting at a train crossing, waiting for a wreck. its gonna happen, eventually.. and when he gets that glassed over, deer in the headlights look, i will be rolling on the floor with laughter. he is better than any comedy routine i have ever seen... sorry, i am rambling now.

bigjohn

Pros -

"...reporting for duty." Smart in two ways. 1) Props him up as a soldier, and strong military leader. 2) Positions himself as a servant of the people, rather than the other way around.

"...don't wear my religion on my sleeve..." All at once a swipe at Bush's extreme religious views, and even his foreign policy. Bush has a frightening sense that because of his "close personal relationship" with god, that whatever he personally believes is also what god believes. It also positions Kerry as a religious man with moderate, fair, values himself.

"old glory" - The republicans have tried very hard to prop themselves up as the only party of patriotism. That if you don't support George and everything he believes in, then you must be un-American, and un-Patriotic. I think Kerry squashed that idea very well last night.

I was afraid Kerry would come across as dry, dull, and boring and was very pleased that he seemed to come out of his shell a bit, and actually act like he had a pulse. He managed to do it in a way that still seemed like himself though. If he'd poured too much into it, it would have come off as phony.

Cons - He promised 40,000 more troops. Where the heck are they coming from?

He promised to roll back the recent tax breaks for people making over $200,000/year...bravo to that I say, but what about other tax breaks for the super rich? What about the tax breaks on dividend payments? Since the dividend tax break CEO's across the country have started dramatically increasing their dividend payouts and making tons and tons of tax free money. The greed of the super rich makes me sick to my stomach. I don't have any problem with people making a lot of money. I don't doubt they may have indeed earned it, but I feel if you are super wealthy you must pay your fair share, and I believe your fair share is indeed MORE than what the middle and lower class pays. A friend of mine made over $100,000 last year for the first time. He paid LESS taxes because of it. He himself thought that was sick. Because he made MORE, his tax rate went down.

There are so many tax loopholes and ways to work the system that many of the super rich pay next to nothing in taxes. How do they do it? They can afford high priced accountants to come up with schemes...legal schemes to get out of paying taxes. I know, a good friend of mine does it for a living. He's given me advice and some of the ideas he comes up with are quite clever, but by no means fair. The fact is, the more money you have the easier it is to pay fewer taxes.

Other than those two points, I was very impressed with the speach. I look forward to seeing the RNC next month. Though if Bush's speach this morning in Missouri is any indication of what's to come, I'm not sure I can sit through it. Did anyone watch that speach this morning? As soon as he got started he tried scaring the nation into thinking that Kerry is going to raise everyone's taxes.

I guess that brings me to another question. So many people cry that Kerry is going to spend, spend, spend, and raise taxes again and again. That's been the Republican mantra since I can remember. If I'm not mistaken under eight years of Clinton, debt was being paid off, and the had an enormous budget surplus. Does that sound like a "tax and spend liberal"? That is certainly how he was painted while he ran. Even if he was a tax and spender, wouldn't that at least be better than what we have now? Now we have a spender and spender. We're just putting everything on a credit card. Over the next several years the biggest expense to our country will be interest on debt. Bigger than all the money we spend on defense, bigger than all the money we spend on healthcare, bigger than all the money we spend on education.

Certainly doesn't sound like the Republican way of running the country to me. Fiscal responsibility is extremely important. George simply doesn't get that.

I think before anybody votes for another candidate from either party, they should read John Stossel's book "Give Me A break". Stossel is a lone voice of reason in the insane mob which is the media. He (and I) believe in individual responsibility, government poking its nose out of our lives through deregulation and decreased taxes and spending, and tort reform to stop the trial lawyers from running our lives.

After reading Stossel's book, tell me that lawsuits against vaccine makers, the EPA superfund, and the Americans With Disabilities Act are good ideas. This country needs a major overhaul, but unfortunately both political parties are so close together in ideology, that any real change is going to be next to impossible.

Mark

Libertarian at heart.

I agree Mark that with both parties having strayed so far from their fundamental beliefs that voters largely base their decisions upon individual issues, style, and perceptions. Though I'm generally a Republican my pivotal issue will be stem cell research as my family has been impacted by Alzheimers and the use of stem cells can dramatically improve the prognosis for many of my family members threatened by this disease. I give credit to Kerry for understanding the importance of this issue. I also think there are some traditional Democrats that are turned off by the manipulation of Michael Moore and Kerry's association with Al Sharpton, who could go for the Bushwacker as a result of these associations.

Personally I cannot wait for the political theatre that will develop over the next 3 months. It should be better than the old Saturday Night Live (w/Belushi).

Spiffnme, you really should go back and read this entire thread.

"I'm curious to know what issues you beleive John Kerry is "far left" on."

I didn't listen to his speech, but from the excerpts in the paper it sounds like he promised a federal health care program, federally funded class size reductions, and a federally funded preschool program, among other things. All of these new programs are possible without raising taxes on the middle class or the wealthy (he only proposes to "roll back" the tax cuts the wealthy received earlier)? How do you fund the ENORMOUS cost of those programs? You don't. None of those things will happen should Kerry get elected. It's all populist BS.

"It's been my experience that people who preach "personal responsibility" and don't believe in "government handouts", are usually people who've never needed assistance of any kind...Contributing to the common good and uplift of others isn't socialism."

It's been my experience that financially secure Liberals who live in nice areas far from the underclass for whom they feel pity are frequently out of touch with reality. As a teacher, I see the same scenario played out every year, hundreds of times over (it's like watching a depressing version of "Groundhog Day"). Kids making poor life decisions: doing drugs, having babies, failing classes, truancy, UNDERACHIEVING, etc... A few short years from now all those kids will probably join the DNC and clamor for gov't handouts, bemoan the lack of fairness in this world, scream "tax the rich", etc...

So half the kids work hard and succeed, the other half f***s around and has a good old time. Should they all receive the same grade? Should I "tax" the overachievers, take a percentage of their points and give them to the kids "who really need it" - the ones who are about to fail because they screwed around all semester? There is nothing noble in the efforts of populist politicians when they preach these big give-aways. All these gov't programs we have today enable people to make crappy decisions and get away with it, even be rewarded for it. All of us who get up and go to work each day are handed the bill.

Folks need to take care of themselves. Period.

And, FYI, my dad was a truck driver that never graduated from HS and my mom was a Mississippi farm girl who cleaned other peoples' houses. Hardly a silver spoon background.

bigwill, when i taught, about 15 yrs ago, we had the kids (6th graders) brushing their teeth at their seats w/out tooth paste, starting their day with OJ, which we teachers had to serve, and provided hot lunches to those less fortunate. one of the kids asked me if i had a snowmobile. i said i could not afford one. he then said it was easy, spend all your money on the skidoo, then i could apply for aid and food stamps."that's what we did" he said. we also had title 1 programs so we could try to teach 6th grades how to read Dick & Jane. well after several years of this bull, i asked the principal why we spent so much on those who will never read above a 3rd grade level, and why didn't we spend some of that money making the achievers over achievers(sp). can't, it's govt money.
so, like you, i have no problem helping those who really need help. but, it frosts my a$$ to provide for those who are the 2nd and 3rd generation of low life moochers who know the ins and outs better that i; time for more workfare and less welfare. don't get me started!
dan

You make it sound like the only people who need assistance are people who simply f*&ked off their whole lives. If that were true, I'd agree...screw 'em. But it's not that simple.

"We have more to do to make quality health care available and affordable." - George W. Bush 7/30/04

"And we value health care that's affordable and accessible for all Americans." - John F. Kerry 7/29/04

Why is it Kerry gets attacked for saying it, but not Bush? Kerry's a "tax and spender" for saying it, but not Bush? Did I miss something?

"You make it sound like the only people who need assistance are people who simply f*&ked off their whole lives. If that were true, I'd agree...screw 'em. But it's not that simple."

We all have stories like twodans to tell. Stories of witnessing the abuse of social programs first hand. I have too many to tell.

All of these freebies are well intentioned programs that actually cause more harm than good. If you really want me to, I'll explain why.

"Why is it Kerry gets attacked for saying it, but not Bush? Kerry's a "tax and spender" for saying it, but not Bush?"

I didn't get the full text of Kerry's speech, but the paper said he proposes a comprehensive federal health care system. I did see a direct quote regarding his belief that health care should be a basic right for all Americans. Bush ain't saying that.

In Bush's speech this morning he alluded to improving health care affordability and accessability by limiting malpractice suits and large punitive settlements. He proposes allowing small businesses to form consortiums(?) for the purpose of providing healthcare to their employees at the kind of discounted rates that large corporations can negotiate. Kerry's proposal is far different than what Bush is talking about.