Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: politics

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How about Kerry? Look at the news yesterday and today. Bush announces planned troop withdrawls (and eventual base closures?) in Europe. Kerry blasts him on this in front of the Veterans of Foreign Wars despite having said last month that he was for scaling down overseas military deployments.
Why the flip-flop? Kerry's campaign manager called it "new thinking"!
More likely he sees an opportunity to curry favor with the Europeans (who - despite their loathing for Americans and their opposition to our foreign policy and ideology - really love the influx of cash that our military bases bring), a chance to paint himself as pro-military at the last minute (that is absurd given his voting record in the Senate and his rhetoric after the Vietnam War), and continue his anti-Bush attacks on all fronts.

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A wonderful example of that man's inability to stick to his guns on anything he says. I don't watch the news much, so I don't get to hear and see all of these things. That guy'll say and do anything to get positive feedback and to criticize Bush.

The absolute best is how Kerry is demanding Bush renounce those swiftboat adds yet when moveon.org accuses Bush as being Hitler Kerry says nothing.

there is a difference between a website saying something.. and nationally broadcast commercials. either way, i find it ridiculious that BUSH would even try and doubt kerry's war record, when his scared, pampered little a$$ was too wussy to go there in the first place. !!

and make no mistake, bush is FOR these anti kerry ads.. he acts like he aint, and gives the illusion of supporting kerrys military record.. yet, he makes no attempt to stop the group from making the commercials.. plus, 2 of his own staff members have had to resign cause of direct links to the swift vets organization.. now tell me bush isnt behind this crap!!..

and just another angle to all this.. bush could actually be helping kerry with all this swift boat stuff.. heres why.. kerry has yet to have to really get specific about other key issues in this election. budget, the war, health care, domestic security, expanding jobs and american work force, economy, etc.. and as long as bush keeps attacking his military record.. all kerry has to do is defend that, and never get pressed on the other REAL issues.. i dont know bout ya'll, but what kerry did 30 years ago is not really my concern.. what i am concerned with, is what he will do in the next 4 years..

the bush campaign better rethink their tactics, cause i think it my end up hurting them in the end..

bigjohn

Speaking of Kerry not having to give is views on other issues yet, when do the debates start?

If I'm not mistaken, Moveon.org is funding commercials of this nature....so there isn't much difference here.

As far as that lawyer that was advising the vets while working for Bush's campaign, you might want to be careful about that argument when the council for Moveon.org is also council for the DNC.

In the end, you have the same thing being done by both sides here. The candidates may not like it, but it's free speech. Bush is denouncing these types of organizations and their tactics and Kerry won't even do the same....He's a cry-baby who is mired in this war record issue and is doing whatever he can to spin his way out of the quicksand that he laid out there.

"kerry has yet to have to really get specific about other key issues in this election. budget, the war, health care, domestic security, expanding jobs and american work force, economy, etc.. and as long as bush keeps attacking his military record.. all kerry has to do is defend that, and never get pressed on the other REAL issues.. i dont know bout ya'll, but what kerry did 30 years ago is not really my concern.. what i am concerned with, is what he will do in the next 4 years.."

John, I love this part. You have summarized the problem with this thing and society as a whole. We have a large mass of sheep out there willing to vote for this guy solely upon their dislike of Bush. He consistently avoids any discussion of his useless record in the Sentate. He focuses consistently on his war record. Now, when his record is under fire and they have to concede possible inconstencies in his story, he tries to spin himself as the candidate running on issues. People are so fired up to get rid of Bush that they are willing to vote in this spineless chamelion to run the country.

I personally don't like Bush. I think that has some pretty extreme views on civil liberties that piss me off. I think that he is just another spending-whore pandering to different political groups, unwilling to stand by the 'smaller government' principal touted by the Republican party. However, given all of these concerns, I am not willing to get in line with the rest of the sheep and vote for this guy who has no core set of beliefs, does only what is beneficial to his political career, and doesn't have the courage to stand up and answer for the choices he made in his political career.

On a different note, to vote Kerry in would derail the possibility of a Condy/Hillary fight for president in '08.

i agree with what you are saying.. i have said it once, i will say it again.. we arent voting for the 'best' candidate, we are voting the least worse.. the lesser of two evils as it may be!!

i dont think condy has a chance in 2008, but hillary sure does. its a scary thought, but one that has merit. i think the 'idea' of her running is more appealing than her actually doing it.. once she gets put to a national audience on a regular basis, that bland, mono-tone voice will end up sounding like the teacher in the peanuts cartoons.. she will lose steam fast, and surly not win.. i think??

bigjohn

There has been quite a bit of talk about how those smear ads may have been hurting Bush, too.
I think the ads have done more harm to Kerry, however. The issue of his service and post-war testimony has been forced onto the public agenda. It appeared the media previously had been more than happy to simply rubber stamp his military service.

In case no one remembers, Vietnam is an issue no one wants to remember. Kerry made his service in Vietnam a central issue of his campaign to counter the traditional Republican attack on democrats as soft on national security issues.

I think Kerry's decision will cost him the election for the following reasons:

1. We lost 50,000 men in the South East Asian war - a war which divided this country and did permanent damage to the national psyche. Talking about Vietnam is as appealing as a bucket of piss.

2. Kerry held himself out as a war hero despite the fact that he knew there is a substantial and vocal group of vets who think Kerry overstated his valor. Bragging is bad enough, making false or inflated claims would be unforgiveable.

3. Kerry made public statements during the war, after his service - statements which disgraced the service of millions of people who served and who don't think of themselves as war-criminals.

4. Kerry's supporters denigrated Bush's service in the Air National Guard. More folks have served in the National Guard over the years than enlisted military. I think Kerry may have insulted a substantial group of voters who served in the National Guard. His political advisers should have advised him about this potential group of voters who never thought of themselves as an affinity group until Kerry's campaign insulted them.

Just some thoughts

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3. Kerry made public statements during the war, after his service - statements which disgraced the service of millions of people who served and who don't think of themselves as war-criminals.

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I know that people don't like thinking of themselves as criminal, but Kerry was not making up the horrible acts he witnessed. People did kill women and children. People did burn entire villages.

Yes, it was a brutal war and our soldiers had trouble differentiating between cililians and militants. But that does not excuse their acts.

The many soldiers who did NOT commit any of those acts have a right to be angry with Kerry, but I have a feeling that those who DID commit them are just sore because they don't like to be reminded of it. And I don't blame them, because morals are not a very helpful thing when you're just trying to stay alive.

Nobody had an answer, so I looked it up and answered my own question. The debate schedule for the 2004 election year is as follows:

First presidential debate:
University of Miami
Coral Gables, FL
Thursday, September 30

Vice presidential debate:
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, OH
Tuesday, October 5

Second presidential debate:
Washington University in St. Louis
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 8

Third presidential debate:
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ
Wednesday, October 13