Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: politics

In reply to:

---

The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

---

It was also recently verified to be true by the intelligence agencies of at least 3 other countries.

All of these comments about Bush lacking intelligence is straight out of the old liberal playbook. They tried it with Reagan, too. For a dumb guy, Bush sure has been able to cause one heck of a meltdown in the Democratic party. It has been very enjoyable to watch.

The hate the left is spewing is pitiful. I'll bet Kerry and Edwards are nice guys. As people, I like them. Their policy ideas are just wrong, so I won't vote for them.

I challenge all of the lefties in this thread to tell us why to vote for John Kerry without referring to Bush as part of the argument. Can you go 2 days telling us why to vote for Kerry without making a degrading comment about Bush? Of course you can't...

I agree with you, littleb. Every country in the middle east is at least suspect for harboring terrorists. The majority of folk in that part of the world do hate us. Their religious leaders have fulminated against the west, in general, and the most powerful western country, the USA, in particular, for decades, fulminations which further a devotional Holy War, a Jihad against infidels. Iraq was a secular Arab country - though secular, it was also a National Socialist totalitarian police state with a completely controlled press - a press which promoted hatred of the US as vitriolic as that of the Islamic Jihadist press. So, if you put yourself in the shoes of the average Iraqi, as you suggest, perhaps you are humiliated as you are told by Al Jazeera and the Arab press in general, because the US brought down the Nazi Ba'athist criminal regime of S. Hussein, and you did not - an insult to your honor. The average Iraqi should be grateful to the US, we delivered the average Iraqi from a nightmare system of systematic murder, rape, random arrests, torture if an informant thought you made a wrong gesture which signified disrespect of the Ba'athist regime.

Contrary to your suggestion, the US did not randomly bomb Iraq over the past decade - we did not bomb anything near civilian targets unless an anti-aircraft radar installation was purposely situated in a civilian area, then turned on thereby inviting an HARM strike.

So, why do they hate us? Because we are the biggest infidel, the most powerful kafir, we are successful, we are where the party is, the music, but really, you know there is an abundance of hatred in that part of the world for all kafirs, Buddhists (note the 12 Nepalese who were murdered today?), Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, B'hai. Why blame us for their over-flowing hatred? Another reason they "hate" us is that we let the Republican Guard and Iraqi army live. We did not slaughter them. They stashed their heavy weapons, took their RPGs and assault rifles home and come out to kill us when they can.

Why Iraq? Because our intelligence agencies, the French, the Russians, even the UN all thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Maybe they're buried, maybe they're sitting in Syria. Does anyone have any doubt that Iraq had WMD? The Ba'athist celebratory footage of the bloated bodies of Kurd civilians, skin sloughed and burned, bore swolen testimony to the Iraqi use of poison gas against civilians. Anyone doubt that Iraq was part of Pakistan's dissemination of nuclear weapon technology through AQ Kahn's network? Why do you think Bush "made up" intelligence about Iraq's WMD capabilities? Had Iraq cooperated with the UN inspections there would not have been a war, and you blame Bush?

Why do you mock our concern and fear of Jihadist terror attacks? I lived in NYC for most of my life and thought the twin towers were wonders. I can't believe Islamic Jihadists brought down these buildings. I can't believe the celebrations all over the middle east - celebrations of carnage. Why did they celebrate? Because they finally struck back at the Crusaders. There's a great burning in their hearts for failing to take Vienna in the 17th century, and for having been turned back by the infidel Christians. You think there can be peace with these folks? Not so long as every institution in these countries preach hate and celebrate murder. Heard of any peace marches in any Islamic country - any public outcry for peace with the Jews or the Christians, Buddhists or the Hindus? No. Because although you complain that Bush lied to us, the true fact is that every source of information every instrument of public opinion motivation in Islamic countries speaks in favor of Jihad, in favor of murder, and tell the biggest whopping lies you can imagine... and you're stunned by the fact that we made war on Iraq? I'm stunned you're stunned.

In reply to:

---

I wasn't going to walk into this fray, but this issue has brought me out into the open. Considering the hatred of Americans throughout the Middle East, every country in the region could be suspect of harboring terrorists. Let's be objective here, and put ourselves in the shoes of the average Iraqi. We've been bombing them for 20 years, so it wouldn't be surprising that certain individuals would chose to take action against the US. The question I ask is why Iraq? I don't trust that the Bush Administration is going to tell the public the truth in regards to this. Are people so afraid of a possible terrorist threat that the President making up intelligence reports to start a war with a weak, middle eastern dictatorship isn't even questioned. I, for one, am appalled by this. We impeach a President for lying about a sexual adventure. We glorify a President who lies to start a war. I'm totally stunned by this

---

Let me start by saying thank you to everyone for jumping in on this one. After seeing Jorge & Littleb's posts, I thought that I was going to have to jump into one of my lengthy tirades.

Since everyone has gotten my back....a few thoughts.

1. Arnold may have an annoying accent, but he is definitely a good speaker. He has a great stage presence and delivery. He just picked up a few points in my book.

2. Listed to Bush speak on Rush today. I don't listen to Rush usually (too extreme for me), but Drudge announced that Bush would be coming on his show. I will have to admit something. Having been one to question Bush's intelligence in the past (earlier posts included), I think that I have a new opinion of him. I think that his problem is not necessarily his intelligence level. I think that his problem is his ability as a public speaker. When he gets on a complicated topic, he nails the topic very well. It's the formulation of smooth soundbyte-worthy dialog that escapes him. In this new light, I can give him a little more credit than I have previously been willing to allow.

3. 2X6 - I am with you on your comments about the sentiment out there some have concerning fears of future attacks. A few times recently, I have seen people downplay discussions of future attacks. I truly believe that some people still don't get it. The events of 9/11 don't seem to have left enough of an impression on them to truly understand that they ARE coming....they want us DEAD...they're is no negotiating with them....no matter who is President, they are still going to do whatever they can to inflict mass damage on our nation and our people.

Yesterday at work I was having a discussion with a coworker about the election, etc. By the end, he kept trying to convince me that what we are dealing with now is no different than the Nazis, Communism, and Vietnam. I couldn't seem to get through to him that there is a HUGE difference. This battle is a religious one. Our enemy doesn't want to beat us on the battlefield.....they want to erase us from the planet. There are no rules of war for them.....there are no rules at all. No one is safe. So, we either sit back and wait for the next massive attack or we stay on the offensive and do whatever possible to deter or at least delay those attacks.

In the end, I just don't get it. When I read my dialog above, it makes me think of that scene from the Terminator when he's trying to get her to understand the Terminator and what she's up against. I should chuckle about that, but the reality is that it give me heartburn, because it's a perfect analogy for what we are now facing.

Well, I could go on and on, but I must attempt to get some sleep before the next baby meltdown.

2x6 as always I am in awe by your insight into culture in that part of the world.

A rehash but to all liberals:

In reply to:

---

Now show me a connection between Saddam and 9/11

---

Nobody is saying there is a direct link there, nobody has said. The point that you are TOTALLY missing is this is NOT a war against those who did 9/11. It is a war against terrorism period! Sadaam was high on the list of terror supporters. Scarey thing is we might have left him be if the inspections had been allowed to continue.

It's just so agrivating to hear that extremely lame arguement over and over from the left. If you are principled against war in general fine, but then that arguement doesn't suite you. So if that is your only arguement all I can say is "thick skull".

Hello Inane - funny thing is, I am a liberal - tolerant, generous, concerned, committed to policies which improve the human condition. On the other hand, I believe that evil exists, in every person, every culture in some measure. Some cultures reinforce those evil impulses, some reinforce the best in us. Jihadism is a naked expression of what I consider evil in that it is intolerant, cruel, rapacious, murderous and mendacious. It is based on lies and a peculiar mentality which glorifies victimization. Every institution in certain cultures reinforce and amplify these impulses. Because it is normative in certain cultures you cannot say it is insane, but by standards of reason and honesty, it surely is. Tolerate diversity? Yes. Tolerate evil? No.

In reply to:

---

If you don't agree with their Marxist-based drivel you apparently shouldn't participate in democratic activities, shouldn't express your opinion, and shouldn't walk on the sidewalks of NYC.

---

Hey, freedom of speech works both ways. If you don't agree with their neo-conservative drivel, you SHOULD participate in democratic activities (e.g. protesting) and SHOULD walk on the sidewalks of New York.

IMHO, they stepped up the 'newsworthiness' (I use that term loosely) of their protests because previous protests have been more or less ignored by the media -- yes, even the DAMN LIBERAL media. Now, I'm not condoning their actions, but mob mentality is a strange force...

In reply to:

---

To disregard Kerry's voting record and the consistent contradictions in his positions is like picking your heart surgeon based upon his/her charm and good looks and not their qualifications.

---

And what, exactly, were Bush's qualifications in the 2000 election? Take away his charm and uncanny knack of clouding the issues in a debate, and what are you left with?

2x6,

I agree with your assessment of the fomentation -- or was it fulmination -- of hatred, more or less. If there's anything we can learn from them it's this:

Mixing religion and nationalism is NEVER a good idea.

Yes, pmbuko, I understand that you have equated Zionism, the movement for a Jewish national homeland with Islamic-Fascism. You have confused nationalism with National Socialism. You have confused a non-evangelizing religion which desires to live in peace, with a religion which elevates the sword as its religious symbol of Jihad - conquest as the sign of divine election. You have confused a true democracy which tolerates people of all religions and confers full human rights including equal legal status, with a religious totalitarian system which is, in its essence, fundamentally intolerant. You have confused a political and national culture which confers full legal and human status to women with a system which treats them like donkeys, condones honor killing of women, clitorectomies, etc. You have confused a nation which outlaws slavery with a culture which is the last great bastion of slavery. I only mean this as a philosophical criticism, but your subtle implied comparison of Zionism to Islamo-Fascims is without historical or rational force.

Reasons to vote for Kerry without mentioning the "B" word.

1) The constitution is not meant to deny any group of people equal rights.

2) Stem Cell research should be funded.

3) If you don't believe that the US's role in the world is to topple any and all governments that we dislike.

4) If you want to keep Church and State separate.

5) Supreme court justice appointments.

6) If you believe in the U.N. and what it stands for.

7) If you are pro-choice.

8) If you believe in actively seeking and funding alternative fuel sources to help cut our dependancy on foreign oil, rather than simply drilling in our own national parks.

9) You want a President that will respect our allies.

...that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I can come up with more.