Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: politics

BigWill don't get me wrong. I may be pro-Choice, but I'm seriously anti-abortion. I see people voting solely on one issue-it's not that easy. My point on the "legislating morality" comment was that the social issues (that affect very few in our society) kept our legislature from addressing issues that affect many.

Bigwill, you contradict yourself..

first you say that you have a.....

In reply to:

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a desire for personal freedom and individual accountability

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OK, that means for the right for a woman to do with HER body as she wishes, and not what you or some politician wants her to do.

then you say...

In reply to:

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there is no way abortions during the second trimester should be legal

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you express one mode of thought, then totally contradict it in your next paragraph.. i aint trying to jump on you or nothing, i am just saying it seems like you are doing a flip-flop, depending on the issue??

i personally, DO NOT believe in abortion. i to have seen ultrasounds, and they are babies in there, plain and simple.. BUT, with that said, i dont feel that i, OR ANYONE, has the right to tell a female what she can or cant do with her body. that is an issue that should be left up to the individual and her family, not the government.

so, im not agreeing or disagreeing with you.. just pointing out my impressions on your post.

bigjohn

We are dependant on imported hydrocarbon energy sources, as is every industrial society in the world. Saudi Arabia has the largest known oil pools in the world. Bush's energy policies are, IMO, poor. We should fund R&D for alternative energy paradigms, encourage conservation, and encourage increased domestic production of hydrocarbon energy sources.

The Saudis have done their best to corrupt our society. Former ambassadors, state department officials, presidents are all targeted by the Saudis with enormous financial rewards for their support of Saudi Arabia. This is the real retirement plan anticipated by many foreign service employees. Saudi Arabia corrupts our media with money, massive amounts of it used to buy favorable editorial positions. Saudi Arabia corrupts our educational institutions by funding departments of Islamic Studies which are staffed by Jihadists.

I think there's an enormous difference between the pre 9/11 and post 9/11 GW Bush - sort of like Shakespeare's Henry V. The Bush family was certainly up to its ears in Saudi favor before 9/11. I hope Pres. Bush sees them differently now. He is certainly presented with a conundrum, in that the despotic Saudi "royal family" holds itself out as a better alternative than the Wahabi Jihadists who the House of Saud claims are attempting to bring them down.

Sure would be nice if we were able to make a break through in Fusion energy research, quickly move to a hydrogen based economy, but in the meantime, the whole industrial world is competing for Saudi oil in the marketplace. If the US stopped buying Saudi oil, it wouldn't make any difference to Saudi output or revenues - the rest of the industrial world would pick up the difference in consumption.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world. I think you should check out Memri or other sites which report on what the media in these countries put out. The fat part of the bell curve of values normative in these societies is Jihadist Islam.

Do I think there will be peace in post war Iraq? No, I don't. I personally believe that Iraq is an unworkable creature of British/French WWI foreign policy. I'd favor giving the Kurds in the north their own state, the Sunis their own and the Shias their own. I think a Swiss style Canton system would work best. The alternative will necessarily be the emergence of another tyrant to hold that creature together.

I think the idea of a democracy in Iraq is overly optimistic. Where is there an Arab democracy in the entire world? However, the effort is noble, but it will be a target for disruption by all of Iraq's neighbors, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran - none of them want to see the emergence of a democratic society in Iraq. The effort has my best wishes.

Is the world better off without Saddam Hussein? How can anyone say it is not? At least we won't be the target of Iraqi nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Does the removal of Hussein make us safe from such attacks from Iran? That remains to be seen.

BigJohn... If our bodies are not within any government regulations... then...

1. Prostitution should be legal.
2. Drug use should be legal.
3. No woman should be prosecuted for harming a baby because of drug or alcohol use.
4. Seat belt laws should be repealed.

BigWill,

I somewhat take offense to your description of a liberal as being a person that blindly accepts what they are told by their college professors and conservatives have put much thought and years into forming their views. Yes, I am a college graduate, and yes I had some liberal professors that pushed their views. I had just as many conservative professors that pushed theirs. I,as an educated adult, form my opinions through thought and experience. I am what you describe as a liberal. I enjoy nature and believe it should be there for my daughter to enjoy. I choose to help people that are less fortunate than I. I believe that we need not be policing the world, but taking care of our own. These are views I have developed on my own, due to my experiences. My father contracted polio at age four. Now at age sixty-four he has to rely on social security to survive. He was forced into early retirement from General Motors due to health issues resulting from Polio. He did not choose to contract Polio. He was simply unlucky. It was nothing he or his family did that led to his handicap. Do we simply ingnore the needs of these people, because they are unable to work and pay their own way? We found out in January that my wife, that is thirty-seven years old has breast cancer. She underwent a masectomy and 8 rounds of chemo. Thank goodness for insurance. I cannot imagine what we would do if we did not have it like many in our country. Between my wife and I we make good money. Over six figures. But without insurance, it would be devastating. Me, my wife, or my 11 year old daughter did anything to contribute to my wife's breast cancer. These life experiences lead me to be a liberal, someone who cares about other human beings. If that in some way makes me a "bad" person, then so be it.

I have many friends that are conservative. Do I think any less of them, no. But many times they argue what Rush Limbaugh said or what G. Gordon Liddy said or Pat White said. They simply spew the phrases I have already heard a million times.

Sorry for the ramble, but I felt the need.

ScottA ... I take offense to YOU.

1. What makes you think being a liberal means you care more about others. The evil Dick Cheyney donated over 25% of his gross income to charity last year... the highest % of the four (Bush, Kerry, Edwards, Cheyney). And personally my wife and I donate over $100k per year to charity. We built our businesses from scratch.. no government help at all.

2. If you cannt afford insurance in the US... a hospital HAS to take care of you... and can bill the govt.

3. Our 13 year old is diabetic, as in your example, he did not choose to get it. $50k of the above mentioned donations go to Diabetes research. Plus we pay for our own insurance.

4. Policing the world... Who got the Vietnam war going ? Democrats. Kosovo ? Democrats. Korea? Democrats. Grenada ? Republicans. Iraq ? Republicans... This is not a liberal/conservative issue... by the way, we spend appx. $40 domestically for every $1 on foreign aid.

Understanding that I was responsible for myself, and that working directly to improve my life as well as the lives of my family and employees led me to being a conservative. The other areas that led me to conservatism is that absolute corruption that exists in ALL government programs.

craig sub,

i think prostitution SHOULD be legal.. it is in one state..and its regulated, and it works. just cause a guy is lonely and dont have no girl.. it dont make it right to arrest him cause he is willing to pay for a service? or the female either cause she is willing to provide a service. its seen as a social stigma, but truth is, its been going on for thousands of years, and it always will.

i think 'natural' occuring drugs should be legal. if it grows natural, and requires NO human intervention to grow or multiply, then it should be legal. marijuana, mushrooms, peyode, etc.. these are natural, elements in nature, that have grown on their own for once again, thousands of years. why is it illegal to plant a marijuana seed and harvest its production, but its legal to plant a tomato seed and eat the tomatoes? this is a simpleton way of looking at it, but thats just how i see it.

#3 is a touchy one, i got no answers there.

and seat belts.. thats a hard one.. texas has mandatory seat belt law, and i abide by it. but, texas is also a no helmet law state, ??? does that make sense.. i think the line between prevention and control gets blurred here.. i think laws that are designed at 'preventing', and laws that are designed at 'controlling' fall into separate categories.

i know my views and beliefs probably aint the norm, and thats OK.. i think my 'moral compass' may not point the same direction as others. but i know one thing, regardless of something being a law or not, most of this argument boils down to personal accountability. people know what is right and wrong. i dont need the law to tell me that. main problem is, the government cant divide the nation into people that have the ability to know the difference between right and wrong, and those who cant.. so, they are forced to make extreme laws that blanket a whole section of people, even if those people are just fine with the way things are.

OK, i am on the chopping block now.. so have at it.

bigjohn

Well, here's the deal, fellas. I have opinions which can be characterized as 'liberal,' and others which can be characterized as 'conservative.' If a gang of masked Islamic Jihadists takes you hostage, ties you up, puts you in front of a video camera, chants 'Allah is Great,' puts the dull sword to your throat, do you think the fact you are a liberal or a conservative will have any effect on the outcome of the situation?

We argue with each other. That comes with the territory of democracy. Liberals insult conservatives, and vice versa. "How can you be so blind ... how can you be so stupid ... I take offense at ..." We discuss policy, we try to convince each other that Kerry is a better candidate, or that Bush is, nevertheless, we are tolerant ... we accept that Kerry may win the election, or that Bush may win, and that the winner is our president. We may disagree with their policies and decisions, but though our disagreement may be spirited, heated, and insulting, we particiipate in a pluralistic, democratic socio/political system.

That system, our society, our values, our people are under attack. We did not make war on Jihadist Islamicists. They are making war on us. We can ignore the war ... it won't stop. We have to plan for a long dispute ... decades, maybe centuries long. Spooky, unnerving, but true.

Craig,

Twist as you wish. I did not ever state that Liberals cared more about people than conservatives. I was simply stating to BigWill that my views are not simply based on what I have learned from my college professors. I have formed my opinions over time as well.

I live in a very conservative based state. Most of my friends are conservative. Most of them believe that all democrats or liberals are evil because we support some government programs for those who need it. I stress those who need it. I work in law enforcement as a Probation Officer. I supervise hundreds of people on a daily basis. Believe me, I see the worst of the worst. People who do not want to work and rely on others to live. Those people in my opinion deserve nothing. The problem is I believe we lump these people together with those who are truly in need. And there are those that are truly in need.

One of the main reasons I typically stay out of political discussions is exactly what you did with your first statement. You take offense to me personally and know absolutely nothing about me. I took offense to BigWill's classifying me as a blind follower unable to form my own opinions, not him personally. There is a difference. That is the problem. We all have differing opinions, but some get angry if others do not agree with their own.

Dick Cheney can afford to give more to charity. He collects more in deferred compensation from Halliburton than he makes as VP. Maybe his charitable donations help to soothe his conscience after porking out at the government trough as head of that company.