![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
Sorry Turbo, I don't click on your links anymore...
j/k -- I was pulling a BigWill on you.
I second the FactCheck.org recommendation.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
And now for something completely different.
I just read this fascinating, poigniant historical perspective on Islam and the West, written by Sadik J. Al-Azm, an emeritus professor of modern European philosophy at the University of Damascus.
Highly recommended reading if you want a little more understanding of culture in the Middle East. This is not an apologist piece of writing, and is not partisan in any way. I came away enlightened.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236 |
I've been reading that site all along. As much as I hate all the lying and half-truthing that's been going on on both sides, it's still Bush's policies that I don't like. It's what he's done that I don't like, not what he says he's done, and what he say's he's going to do.
I want a diplomat in office. I want someone that doesn't piss all over anyone that disagrees with him. I want someone that respects science. I want someone who is pro-choice. I want an attorny general who won't cover up the statue of lady justice. I want a president who when speaking to the nation or the world doesn't lean on the podium with a stupid grin on his face. I want supreme court justices who are not conservative right-wingers. I want an administration that respects and endorses gay rights...and finally I want a president who can pronounce the word nuclear.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951 |
"Do you think the war would be going better if no Americans criticized it?"
Uh... yeah.
My lefty start-up page featured this article about "Americans" sending photos and messages to Iraqis:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6260189/
Apparently it is important to inspire the enemy in their carbomb campaign against a fledgling democratic gov't. Good job guys, Kerry and Fonda are proud of your efforts.
2x6 mentioned Abraham Lincoln earlier. There are many paralells between our current situation and what Lincoln faced:
- A hugely unpopular war
- The purpose of the war was not always clear - were the Union boys fighting and dying to liberate slaves? That was not a popular justification in the North, despite the obvious nobility of that effort now. Many reasons for the war; not everyone understood them or agreed with them.
- Lincoln had tons of brutal critics in the media.
- Generals like McClellan, who had fallen out of favor with the President, turned on him - criticizing specific war strategies in public.
- Lincoln faced an extremely bitter re-election campaign during the war, narrowly defeating McClellan (whew, wasn't that fortuitous?).
One thing that wasn't similar was the number of casualties. 60,000 dead in 3 days at Gettysburg, 20,000+ in one day at Antietam, the inhumanity of Sherman's campaign against civilians in the South, 600,000 dead in the end...
If you were alive and voting in the North back then, is there any doubt you would have hated Lincoln, too?
I cannot imagine the burden that man carried on his conscience.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236 |
I guess if Bush wins re-election he'd better not go to the theatre then.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
Did he just go there? whoah.
It's not like he goes to the theater anyway. Bush and culture rarely interact.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
Another thing that wasn't similar was the fact that it was a civil war, not an invasion of a different country. I don't understand how you can even compare the two.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
Going off of spiff's rant, I want a president who cares about facts more than instincts.
Read this very sad and depressing NYTimes article called Without a Doubt.
Bush supporters can skip reading it and just reply with the usual liberal fingerpointing drivel.
Or read it and tell me what you really think. Seriously.
Last edited by pmbuko; 10/17/04 02:59 AM.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951 |
I'll read your link in a minute, but I think the comparison between the Iraq war and the US Civil War is plenty valid (not that it matters, but if one wanted to, one could argue that the CSA was in fact another country after the secession - my ancestors felt that way, I'm sure).
Hugely unpopular war; unpopular President; push for war not easily understood by the masses; the liberation of oppressed peoples; bitter re-election campaigns mid-war; hostile media; rivals and former subordinates criticizing tactics, strategy, etc... in public; both Presidents were widely lampooned because of their physical appearance (Lincoln was frequently referred to in simian terms); both Presidents were derided for their perceived lack of intelligence; "Bush's War" now, "Lincoln's War" then.
The casualties??? I remember the media geniuses and their retired military analysts (including Clark on CNN) predicting 10-20,000 US casualties prior to the Afghan War and like 20-50,000 prior to the Iraq War. Our military has performed unbelievably well and, historically speaking, casualties have been very light.
I can't believe that the Democrats' manufactured candidate - the political equivalent of Brittany Spears - is polling neck and neck with a real President by criticizing the motivation and prosecution of this war. When people buy Brittany's CDs I can laugh, but you guys buying into all this anti-American drivel has me sickened.
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![](/boards/images/icons/default/book.gif) Re: OT: Politics
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951 |
Hey spiff, you spelled "theater" wrong.
What did it say, pmb? I don't want to register with the NY Times.
Last edited by BigWill; 10/17/04 04:34 AM.
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