Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP100 vs. VP150 vs. M22 vs. QS4 vs. M3 vs...

It's an inconvenience, but about the same level of inconvenience as getting you a beer. No problem

Thanks. Now will you get a pair of VP100s and try that out?

ROTFLMAO !!

No.

Seriously, I don't think the "vertical VPxxx" approach would have any real advantage over using a pair of M22s in the same configuration. It would be interesting, however, to understand why they were designed without a port -- whether it was because "they don't need a port, they're just doing dialog" or whether the air-suspension configuration makes the VPxxx speakers perform a bit *better* than the ported boxes in a frequency range important to center channel operation.

My only reason for doing it would be the shielding. Otherwise, I'd use a pair of M3s or M2s on the sides.

The interference at the sides didn't seem too bad, much less than when the M2s were on the top.

We should probably ping Axiom and ask about the possibility of getting the extra shielding on M2/M3 magnets. That will get us into the whole :

"you should buy VPxxx, that's what they're for" /
"but they don't have a port so I have to cross over higher" /
"nothing wrong with crossing over higher, we designed them that way" /
"but I don't wanna cross over higher" /
"sigh, introduce the VP150P with a couple of vortex ports even though it really isn't gonna make any difference"

...argument.

The only real issue here, I think, is :

- some people seem to be able to localize the sub if you cross over at 100hz

- crossing over at 80hz probably fixes the problem

- if you cross over a VPxxx at 80 hz (especially a VP100) there is a concern that there will be a dip in frequency response between the bottom of VPxxx response and the sub kicking in at 80 hz(no idea if this is true)

This would be a good time for Alan to step in and give us a collective whack on the side of the head

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Once the third M2i shows up I'm thinking about moving the M60s to the upstairs system and playing my serious music there, and running 3 M2i across the front of the HT.

I believe that was the reason for ordering the M60s in the first place, but I didn't have that second receiver when they showed up so I stuck em in the basement (HT) and completely forgot what the original plan was.

I felt that (two M2s + sub) was borderline for the basement, but now that I have an AV receiver and 5 speakers it's clear that you get a lot more "effective" SPL from having 5 speakers going, either with a DVD or with a surround stereo mode. My guess is that (three M2s + two cheap surrounds + sub) will be more than enough for "normal volume" HT and music.

I will try the "2 M2s as center channel with M60 mains" configuration first, though.

Thanks for testing the pair! I think we probably should see if it's possible to get M2s with extra shielding for a little extra dough. I think the M3s are out, since the 6.5s aren't used for any center channel, and so there are not greater shielded models around. BTW, how did it sound?
Oh, and please don't screw up your TV... you'd hate me forever!

Do you have a sub upstairs? If not, I'd probably use the 60s for music and the 2s for home theatre.

I dont think you can really mess up the TV, esp for short viewing... worse case you jsut need to degaus it. And every TV has a deguas cycle when you turn it off, so if the screen gets weird just turn the tv on and off several times, if its too abd you would then need to barrow a degaus tool thingy (forget its proper name). Its pretty easy to use, I loved playing with one when I used to work at Best Buy years ago.

...so after reading thru all of this, whats the concensus on single channel speakers or a true center channel to hanndle center channel duties? If I ever manage to get the funds to finsih off my Axiom setup I need to know if I want a VP150 or (dual?) M2's.

We will need to buy more speakers to get all the answers, but here's what I found so far :

1. Two M2s in parallel seemed to provide more detail than a single M2. I did equalize the SPL as best as I could without using test disk and meter -- ran most of the "2xM2" tests with the center taken down 3dB from the single M2 setting, and went right up to 4dB difference "just in case". There wasn't a huge difference on regular dialog but on the helicopter crash scene from the Matrix there was a surprising difference in the "crunching glass" noises as the helicopter goes in, to the point that I was clearly hearing sounds I hadn't noticed before. Hardly scientific, of course, but I did try real hard to compensate for the higher output of the two speakers.

Just got the tiniest bit of fringing with the M2s touching the sides of the 27" 4:3 direct view TV ($300 Sanyo). The first round of tests were run with the M2s sitting on the same surface as the TV, ie with the speakers below the horizontal centerline of the CRT. I found this pretty distracting since the sound seemed to be a bit below the image -- much more so than when the speaker was on top of the TV (even further off center). My guess is that since the mains are a bit below the centerline of the TV having the center a bit above the centerline sort of balances things out as long as the distances aren't too big.

Moving the speakers up so their center was a bit above of the centerline of the CRT (woofers down) put the center channel sound right in the middle of the CRT, or at least close enough. The effect was good; the sound seemed closer to the image (eg. dialog vs. lips, explosion vs. helicopter) than with any other configuration tested to date.

There were two minor downsides with this configuration. The first was that the sound didn't seem to be as sharply centered as with a single inverted M2 on top. I'm not sure this is really a problem -- 99% of my experience is with stereo so I always tend to associate sharper imaging with better speakers, but in the surround world that isn't always the case. By the end of the testing I still preferred the sharper image but I realize that might be the wrong judgement. Meditate on this I will...

The second problem was that using a pair of speakers seemed to let the center sound move from side to side a bit as the listener moved off center. It wasn't a huge problem but I didn't like it (see previous problem and possible "old stereo fart" factor). With mains 8 feet apart, center(s) 3 feet apart, and standing 10 feet from the mains, moving 4 feet off axis (end cushion on a big 3-seat sofa) made the dialog seem to move 12-15" in the same direction. All the above distances are rough estimates, none were measured, but they should all be proportionally wrong

Next experiment was two inverted M2s side by side on top of the TV, vs. 1 inverted M2 in the same position but centered. In hindsight I screwed this one up -- didn't have two mazazines or coasters to protect the tops of the M2s so used a couple of paperbacks instead. The resulting height was enough to make the center sound seem to be noticeably "above" the TV image for the first time. I need to re-run this test with the inverted speakers sitting right on the top of the TV, no paperbacks.

Finally, I spent some time trying to isolate a mild distortion that showed up intermittently throughout the tests. It turned out that one of my dogs had gone to sleep on the far side of an M60 and was snoring away happily, quite unaware of my efforts to locate "that funny sound".

So... where does this leave me ? Single M2, inverted on top of the TV, wondering if I should change my "single M2" order to a VP100 before the nice folks at Axiom process it in the morning.

Wow. Lots of stuff to think about there. I'm going to try out a pair of M22s when I can get Peter to bring them over (available sometime this week? ), and I'll also check out a VP100 on its side. I'm constrained to side centers due to WAF and a lack of space in my entertainment center underneath the TV.